[kfay]

Had this auction yesterday:

(1♣)-P-(1♥)-1♠
(2♥)-4♠-(5♣)-Dbl
All Pass

What do you lead?

If it matters to you, here's your hand: 10xxxx 10xxx Kxxx void

Talking with some people after the hand the general opinion was: "This is just a penalty double," yet, a heart lead is required to defeat the contract (I was void).

So that begs the question, what are some general rules about lead-directing doubles against game contracts? Do they just have to come out of the blue? Or is it just when game is 'freely bid', i.e. not necessarily a sacrifice?

[Echognome]

I can only think of one auction where we play a lead directing double of a game contract and that's when the opponents bid 1NT - 3NT. For all other cases, double is penalty or penalty-oriented (as I don't reverse the meaning in some auctions as others do).

[cherdanno]

kfay, on Apr 9 2009, 11:59 AM, said:

So that begs the question, what are some general rules about lead-directing doubles against game contracts?  Do they just have to come out of the blue? Or is it just when game is 'freely bid', i.e. not necessarily a sacrifice?

Only at adjective bridge.
More seriously, echo is right of course, and there are a few similar examples (1N 2C 2H 3N, then double asks for a spade lead, 2N 3N).
But e.g. (1S) (2S) (4S) X is not a lightner double either.

[kfay]

cherdanno, on Apr 9 2009, 12:09 PM, said:

But e.g. (1S) (2S) (4S) X is not a lightner double either.

Certainly not, but I know a few people who like to play:

(1C)-(1S); (2S)-(4S)-Dbl as 'lead a club'

[mikeh]

kfay, on Apr 9 2009, 11:59 AM, said:

Had this auction yesterday:

(1♣)-P-(1♥)-1♠
(2♥)-4♠-(5♣)-Dbl
All Pass

What do you lead?

If it matters to you, here's your hand:  10xxxx 10xxx Kxxx void

Talking with some people after the hand the general opinion was: "This is just a penalty double," yet, a heart lead is required to defeat the contract (I was void).

So that begs the question, what are some general rules about lead-directing doubles against game contracts?  Do they just have to come out of the blue? Or is it just when game is 'freely bid', i.e. not necessarily a sacrifice?

The fact that an unusual lead would work, and that a Lightner double would suggest that lead, doesn't make this a Lightner scenario.

A power double is going to be a frequent occurence on this type of auction, in which partner is relatively unlimited... and all the more so when you are void in trump.

As it is, if the opps are playing support doubles, you have the inferences that partner is either stiff or void in hearts, that he isn't cashing a lot of spades, and that the opps likely can't avoid whatever spade losers they have... it is LHO who is probably looking at a stiff spade and the diamond K rates to be well placed (LHO is the least favorite player to hold the Ace).

So there is a reasonable argument that you should lead the heart anyway.. not because the double is Lightner, but because partner may ruff it, and if not, should be winning a trump trick and crossing to your diamond K. Hence lead your lowest heart.

[gnasher]

Some "out of the blue" doubles are obviously Lightner, showing a void somewhere. For example:
  3♦ 3♠ pass 4♠
  dbl
or
  1♠ pass 3♠ pass
  4NT pass 5♦ pass
  5♠ pass pass dbl
(I've actually had this one, or something like it.)

I think that the one mentioned by Cherdano:
  1♠ pass 2♠ pass
  4♠ pass pass dbl
is two-way - either it's going down regardless of the lead, or the doubler has a void somwehere

[whereagles]

It's a Lightner when it works. When it doesn't, it's just silliness

[hanp]

Quote

Some "out of the blue" doubles are obviously Lightner, showing a void somewhere. For example:
  3♦ 3♠ pass 4♠
  dbl

Obviously not lighter for me.

[petergreat]

I'd still lead a heart.

You obviously aren't going to lead away from the diamond K.
Your spades look bad...and more likely than not their burst to 5♣ suggests shortness.
You can't lead clubs unless you steal one from someone else...
also they have bid and raised hearts so I would think partner is singleton at least. If he doesn't get in you can't defeat the contract anyway and if he does you hope he leads a diamond. The fact that you led a heart not a spade suggests shortage and well, I'd lead a low heart to encourage diamonds. Not surefire, but best chance. Or, he may be void anyway...

[gnasher]

hanp, on Apr 13 2009, 03:59 PM, said:

Quote

Some "out of the blue" doubles are obviously Lightner, showing a void somewhere. For example:
  3♦ 3♠ pass 4♠
  dbl

Obviously not lighter for me.

So what is it then?

[petergreat]

Are you even allowed to make such a bid?

[Gerben42]

A Lightner dbl is one where you have an agreement that it is one. Here it's common sense that when opps bid and raise ♥, partner doubles and you have 4 small, that's probably what he wants!

The relevant question is: Would it have been Lightner if you had had a different hand, say:

10xxxxx x Kxxxx x

[OleBerg]

Gerben42, on Apr 14 2009, 12:22 PM, said:

A Lightner dbl is one where you have an agreement that it is one. Here it's common sense that when opps bid and raise ♥, partner doubles and you have 4 small, that's probably what he wants!

The relevant question is: Would it have been Lightner if you had had a different hand, say:

10xxxxx x Kxxxx x

Agree with this.

Double means either:

This goes down regardsless

or

think, and find the right lead.