[kfay]

I was speaking yesterday with a friend of mine who was interested in potentially playing 3m in the sequence above as a real raise and 3H as just a "courtesy" raise.

Does anyone have experience with this or care to comment otherwise?

In context we play 1M-3m as natural, invitational. You could get the best of all worlds, it seems, by playing this jump as weak and 2/1 in a minor GF except when suit rebid but that is not a structure that really interests me.

Does this gain more often than it loses?

[ArtK78]

I play that 2♥ in that sequence is nonforcing. Why would you want to make a "courtesy" raise?

[kfay]

ArtK78, on Mar 30 2009, 10:21 AM, said:

I play that 2♥ in that sequence is nonforcing. Why would you want to make a "courtesy" raise?

xx Axxx Axxx xxx

[rbforster]

In precision I think there's no strong reason for a weak long minor response - just pass. Since partner is limited if you have a very weak and distributional hand the opps will bail you out or wish they had.

So if you like playing 1M-3m as invitational (reasonable), maybe over 1M-1N-2OM or 1M-1N-2M you could play a 3m bid is a help suit game try for the last bid major. This gives you your courtesy raise as a less specific (or more specific) invitation.

Personally I think preemption via Bergen raises is quite valuable opposite limited openers and consequently I play 1M-3m as fitted raises. Therefore I play 1M-1N-2X-3m as invitational, but that's just my preference.

[hanp]

It's a trade off and I think that there are less costly ways to deal with this. Missing the natural and weak 3m is a serious loss.

[keylime]

Unless you're playing 1NT as the only G/F call, I think the only time 3m could hit the table, is when you have no fit for opener - like the 1-2-6-4 hand.

In retrospect, I might leave my pard in that 4-2 fit.

[Cascade]

I think this is only useful if 2♥ is a wide range rebid.

If for example you play Gazzilli or perhaps BART (I don't know the details of BART) where you have an artificial way to invite then there is no need for this distinction as you only raise to 3♥ with a good hand.

[awm]

It seems very useful to be able to show the weak long minor suit hands, much better than playing in a 4-2 heart fit. In comparison, having a "courtesy raise" will only help you when it gets you to a making game, and it will actually cost you quite a bit when opener is very minimum and you go down at the three-level. I think the net benefit of 3m natural is substantially more.

Gazzilli (or a strong club system) does help with this problem (BART doesn't help). On the given hand with two aces, you're pretty unlikely to have game opposite partner's 11-16 or so, especially if this range excludes 5-5 and 6-4 hands at the upper end.

[keylime]

Here's my fear that I have.

Playing 3m on a 6-0 or 6-1 fit. Good hand for the simulation types to determine which is better.

[awm]

keylime, on Mar 30 2009, 01:40 PM, said:

Here's my fear that I have.

Playing 3m on a 6-0 or 6-1 fit. Good hand for the simulation types to determine which is better.

But a 6-1 fit is usually a lot better than a 4-2 fit. Yes, occasionally partner will have five hearts, but occasionally partner will have three cards in my minor too. And there are also hands with a seven card minor to consider, or with shapes like 2263 and a very good minor (and not much else).

[Apollo81]

I would definitely not pass 2♥ on xx Axxx Axxx xxx. There are 5-5 minimums where game is excellent.

[Apollo81]

I suggest you use 3♥ as an aggressive invitation and 4♥ as a conservative invitation.

[the hog]

keylime, on Mar 30 2009, 11:42 PM, said:

Unless you're playing 1NT as the only G/F call, I think the only time 3m could hit the table, is when you have no fit for opener - like the 1-2-6-4 hand.

In retrospect, I might leave my pard in that 4-2 fit.

Dwayne?
x
xx
KQJTxxx
xxx

[keylime]

I'm saying in concept because often when I bid 3m in this type of auction, I get the 6-0 trump fit. Just an idle thought. And I never get dealt a decent six card suit.

[hanp]

The_Hog, on Mar 30 2009, 07:39 PM, said:

Dwayne?

Agree.

[rogerclee]

Agree with Noble, just bid game with a very sound invite.