[Free]

The auction starts (1X)-pass-(1Y)-...

Suppose you want to use Dbl, 1NT and 2X as calls to show various 2-suiters (yes I know, many believe 1NT should be natural, but that's not relevant here). The obvious difference you'll make is which suit is longer.

Now, I have a little dispute with one of my partners. Basically we have 2 variations, but we don't know which one is best:
Dbl = equal length
1NT = lower longer
2X = higher longer
or
Dbl = equal length
1NT = higher longer
2X = lower longer

So, which one is best, and why?

EDIT: maybe I didn't make myself clear...
PLEASE DON'T GIVE ALTERNATIVES, JUST RESPOND TO THE QUESTION ASKED!

[Mbodell]

It seems like 1nt being the lower suit and 2x being the higher suit is better since it lets you get out in the longer suit at the lower level. If you assume partner has a weak hand with no preference (which is the case that matters most to compare the two methods IMO) then this is better.

To illustrate imagine the bidding is 1♦-P-1♠ and partner has longer clubs than hearts. If he can bid 1nt then you can bid 2♣ with no preference. If he has to bid 2♦ now you have to bid 3♣ with no preference.

[ArtK78]

Pardon me for diverging from the conditions of the original post, but many (most?) would play that 2X and 2Y in this sequence are BOTH natural. Whether 1NT is natural in this sequence is not the main issue (personally, I would not play 1NT as natural in this position).

[peachy]

Both 2X and 2Y are natural, showing that suit.
Dbl and 1NT (if played as Sandwich NT) show the unbid suits, in addition to 2NT with extreme distribution

[Trinidad]

In a world where you frequently run into psyches, it makes sense to have bids in both X and Y as natural. But in a culture where psyching is rare, in my humble opinion, it doesn't make a lot of sense to use a bid in a suit that has been bid naturally (and unlimited in length) on your left as natural.

I currently play in The Netherlands. In the past four years that I have played there, I have seen one psyche at my table and I made it myself. As a result, if I make a bid in a suit that has been bid on my left, it is not natural by my definition.

Some typical examples:

1♦-Pass-1♠-2♦: overcall in hearts with clubs on the side

1♦-Pass-1♥-Dbl
1♠-2♦: Natural

1♦-Pass-1♥-Dbl
1♠-2♥: Cue

1♦-Pass-1♥-Dbl
1♠-2♠: Natural

1♦-Pass-1♥-Dbl
1♠-Pass-2♥-2♠: Natural (LHO has a limited amount of spades, pretty much exactly 4, or is psyching)

Rik

[Free]

ArtK78, on Mar 1 2009, 03:12 AM, said:

Pardon me for diverging from the conditions of the original post, but many (most?) would play that 2X and 2Y in this sequence are BOTH natural. Whether 1NT is natural in this sequence is not the main issue (personally, I would not play 1NT as natural in this position).

Grrr

[1eyedjack]

I don't have a strong opinion on the choices offered by the OP, but I would like to add additional options that I have played for some time and am happy with, which also does NOT use 1NT as natural. I didn't invent it or anything, but it comes from Amesbury and Payne's book TNT and Competitive Bidding:

X = 3-suited takout of LHO
1N = 3-suited takout of RHO
both cues = 2-suiters

The takout of RHO is particularly useful if the opening bid can be prepared. But then i guess that is also the argument for cue being natural (but more dangerous perhaps)

[kgr]

I play this. Hope this is what you were looking for (..after?):
Dbl, 1NT and cues shows 4-4s and 5-4s, depending on the number of calls available.

After (1♣)-(1♦): 4 options
- Dbl = weak 4-4 (could be 4-3)
- 1NT = good 4-4
- 2♣ = 5♥ + 4♠
- 2♦ = 4♥ + 5♠

After (1♣)-(1♥), (1♣)-(1♠): 3 options
- Dbl = 4-4
- 1NT shows preference for ♦
- 2♣ shows preference for the major

After (1♦)-(1♥), (1♦)-(1♠), (1♥)-(1♠), (1♦)-(2♣): 2 options
- Dbl shows no preference or preference for the lowest suit
- 1NT shows preference for the highest suit (or 2♦ after 1♦-2♣)

[Ant590]

I played the following for a couple of years. I liked it then, but don't play it now:

(1x) - pass - (1y) -

dbl = 4/4 exactly
1NT = 5/4 either way
2x = 6/4
2y = 4/6
2NT = 5/5

[Fluffy]

Mbodell, on Mar 1 2009, 12:35 AM, said:

It seems like 1nt being the lower suit and 2x being the higher suit is better since it lets you get out in the longer suit at the lower level.

after reading this there is no further thinking needed.

[rogerclee]

Mbodell, on Feb 28 2009, 05:35 PM, said:

It seems like 1nt being the lower suit and 2x being the higher suit is better since it lets you get out in the longer suit at the lower level. If you assume partner has a weak hand with no preference (which is the case that matters most to compare the two methods IMO) then this is better.

To illustrate imagine the bidding is 1♦-P-1♠ and partner has longer clubs than hearts. If he can bid 1nt then you can bid 2♣ with no preference. If he has to bid 2♦ now you have to bid 3♣ with no preference.

Yes, agree with this.

[mikestar]

Free, on Feb 28 2009, 11:19 PM, said:

<snip>
EDIT: maybe I didn't make myself clear...
PLEASE DON'T GIVE ALTERNATIVES, JUST RESPOND TO THE QUESTION ASKED!
</snip>

I understand that you do not wish people posting on your thread who aren't answering your question. I would call to your attention that I really dislike screaming (ALL CAPS IN RED) even when it isn't directed at me: it interferes with my enjoyment of the forums. I do not know but strongly suspect that I am not alone in this opinion.

[mikestar]

Mbodell, on Mar 1 2009, 12:35 AM, said:

It seems like 1nt being the lower suit and 2x being the higher suit is better since it lets you get out in the longer suit at the lower level. If you assume partner has a weak hand with no preference (which is the case that matters most to compare the two methods IMO) then this is better.

To illustrate imagine the bidding is 1♦-P-1♠ and partner has longer clubs than hearts. If he can bid 1nt then you can bid 2♣ with no preference. If he has to bid 2♦ now you have to bid 3♣ with no preference.

Agree 100%.

[hanp]

I prefer 1NT to be natural.

[Free]

mikestar, on Mar 2 2009, 01:03 AM, said:

Free, on Feb 28 2009, 11:19 PM, said:

<snip>
EDIT: maybe I didn't make myself clear...
PLEASE DON'T GIVE ALTERNATIVES, JUST RESPOND TO THE QUESTION ASKED!
</snip>

I understand that you do not wish people posting on your thread who aren't answering your question. I would call to your attention that I really dislike screaming (ALL CAPS IN RED) even when it isn't directed at me: it interferes with my enjoyment of the forums. I do not know but strongly suspect that I am not alone in this opinion.

1. totally off topic, perhaps better to PM me...

2. it interferes more with my enjoyment of the forums (and especially my own threads) if almost nobody is answering the question. Especially if imo it's clear that I don't want a discussion about other methods, which we had like 1000 times already.

so boo hoo!

[Codo]

Frederic, I understand your red caps. You got 5 answers and just one was full of value.
Anyway, I agree with Gonzalo and Roger, everything with value was said in the first answer.