[lexlogan]

No one responded to my comment in another thread, so I'll repeat it: more than one partner has passed after a sequence like 1♦-1♥-2♣ with 8 or 9 hcp and 4432 or similar, missing an easy 3NT when I hold 17-18 hcp. I've never seen this problem addressed by the 1♦ on 4-5 advocates.

Do you:
(1) Accept that you'll miss game on such a layout?
(2) Strain to rebid 2NT or a 3-card major when you're strong?
(3) Open 1♣ and reverse to 2♦ with both 4-5 and 5-4 shape?
(4) Expect partner to take a false preference back to 2♦ with 2-3 in the minors, at least when he isn't minimum?
(5) Other

[TylerE]

I don't open 1♦ and rebid 2♣ on a 17 point hand. The sequence shows a minimum, that's kinda the point. If 5422 just bid 2NT (Or open 1N with a bad 17), with 5431 open the 5 and JS.

[brianshark]

You should almost never pass with 8+ pts as responder on this or a similar sequence. And unless you have a singleton or 4+ ♣s, you should probably be correcting to 2♦ anyway, even if you are minimum, but especially if you have extras.

The reason is that while you will always have less than reverse strength if you have longer clubs, if you have longer diamonds, you can have anything up to a 3♣ rebid strength (GF for me - and I assumed for everybody until recently).

You are in a bit of bother if you frequently open 1♦ with longer clubs (or systemically do so as I do with some of my pards) but I thionk you're better off correcting anyway because playing in a mini-moysian occasionally is better than missing game occasionally.

[hrothgar]

lexlogan, on Feb 27 2009, 10:55 PM, said:

No one responded to my comment in another thread, so I'll repeat it: more than one partner has passed after a sequence like 1♦-1♥-2♣ with 8 or 9 hcp and 4432 or similar, missing an easy 3NT when I hold 17-18 hcp. I've never seen this problem addressed by the 1♦ on 4-5 advocates.

Do you:
(1) Accept that you'll miss game on such a layout?
(2) Strain to rebid 2NT or a 3-card major when you're strong?
(3) Open 1♣ and reverse to 2♦ with both 4-5 and 5-4 shape?
(4) Expect partner to take a false preference back to 2♦ with 2-3 in the minors, at least when he isn't minimum?
(5) Other

Let's assume that I have a 1=3=4=5 pattern

My gut reaction is typically to

Open 1♣ with enough strength to reverse (I am part of the strong reverse crowd)

Open 1N with 15+ HCP and insufficient strength to reverse

Open 1♦ if I don't have enough strength for a 1N opening

[Winstonm]

With a good 17 I reverse when appropriate.
This places the 1D-2C rebid sequence into the 11-17 range, after which responder should bid accordingly. Passing 2C would be fairly rare unless a strong preference for clubs is held - tending to take false preference for diamonds with the 8-9 point hands in order to keep the bidding open.

This is not perfect - but it is playable

[mtvesuvius]

lexlogan, on Feb 27 2009, 02:55 PM, said:

No one responded to my comment in another thread, so I'll repeat it: more than one partner has passed after a sequence like 1♦-1♥-2♣ with 8 or 9 hcp and 4432 or similar, missing an easy 3NT when I hold 17-18 hcp. I've never seen this problem addressed by the 1♦ on 4-5 advocates.

Do you:
(1) Accept that you'll miss game on such a layout?
(2) Strain to rebid 2NT or a 3-card major when you're strong?
(3) Open 1♣ and reverse to 2♦ with both 4-5 and 5-4 shape?
(4) Expect partner to take a false preference back to 2♦ with 2-3 in the minors, at least when he isn't minimum?
(5) Other

You shouldn't have 17-18 HCP here! With 5♣ and 4♦ you reverse, and with 5♦ and 4♣ you jump-shift, this should not be a problem, but it's rare that responder doesn't bid again anyway.

Quote

Do you:
(1) Accept that you'll miss game on such a layout?

Every once and a while there will be a lucky game missed... This is not something to worry too much about imo.

Quote

(2) Strain to rebid 2NT or a 3-card major when you're strong?

I do like to rebid 2NT on 5422 hands that are strong, so yes. I don't rebid 3 Card Majors... Because it's undiscussed in most of my partnerships, and I don't usually have ways to clarify.

Quote

(3) Open 1♣ and reverse to 2♦ with both 4-5 and 5-4 shape?

Only with 5♣ and 4♦, see above.

Quote

4) Expect partner to take a false preference back to 2♦ with 2-3 in the minors, at least when he isn't minimum?

Not usually, I think partner should pass with 2-3 usually.

[mike777]

lexlogan, on Feb 27 2009, 02:55 PM, said:

No one responded to my comment in another thread, so I'll repeat it: more than one partner has passed after a sequence like 1♦-1♥-2♣ with 8 or 9 hcp and 4432 or similar, missing an easy 3NT when I hold 17-18 hcp. I've never seen this problem addressed by the 1♦ on 4-5 advocates.

Do you:
(1) Accept that you'll miss game on such a layout?
(2) Strain to rebid 2NT or a 3-card major when you're strong?
(3) Open 1♣ and reverse to 2♦ with both 4-5 and 5-4 shape?
(4) Expect partner to take a false preference back to 2♦ with 2-3 in the minors, at least when he isn't minimum?
(5) Other

As I mentioned I choose to open the stronger minor with 4d and 5c, assuming I cannot open 1nt or have a typical strong reverse. I strain to open 1nt(14-16) or Mexican 2d(stronger nt hand) whenever possible.

btw playing Walsh style if I open one club I expect to lose the diamond suit very often. In practice the gains far outweigh the rare loss.

Yes we raise on 3 card major suits but I would guess not as often as many others in BBF.

With 5d and 4c I open 1d if not nt.


This basically means I open 1d with 4-5 less than others but when I do I am opening the strongest minor.

Yes I expect pard to often take a preference back to d, that risks playing in a 4-2 fit but I cannot remember the last time we did. Opponents tend to overcall or balance often.

[jdonn]

TylerE, on Feb 27 2009, 03:00 PM, said:

I don't open 1♦ and rebid 2♣ on a 17 point hand. The sequence shows a minimum, that's kinda the point. If 5422 just bid 2NT (Or open 1N with a bad 17), with 5431 open the 5 and JS.

mtvesuvius, on Feb 27 2009, 03:19 PM, said:

You shouldn't have 17-18 HCP here! With 5♣ and 4♦ you reverse, and with 5♦ and 4♣ you jump-shift, this should not be a problem, but it's rare that responder doesn't bid again anyway.

huh??

[mikeh]

lexlogan, on Feb 27 2009, 02:55 PM, said:

No one responded to my comment in another thread, so I'll repeat it: more than one partner has passed after a sequence like 1♦-1♥-2♣ with 8 or 9 hcp and 4432 or similar, missing an easy 3NT when I hold 17-18 hcp. I've never seen this problem addressed by the 1♦ on 4-5 advocates.

Do you:
(1) Accept that you'll miss game on such a layout?
(2) Strain to rebid 2NT or a 3-card major when you're strong?
(3) Open 1♣ and reverse to 2♦ with both 4-5 and 5-4 shape?
(4) Expect partner to take a false preference back to 2♦ with 2-3 in the minors, at least when he isn't minimum?
(5) Other

Partner should never, never pass the 2♣ rebid with 4=4=2=3 8 counts.. at worst, if one tends to open 1♣ with 4=5, we end up in a 5-2 rather than a 5-3.. that is a minor price that costs appreciably only rarely. Of course, if one frequently opens 1♦ on 4=5 minors, then the cost will be more significant and more common.

So I don't accept the starting premise.

However, we may miss a game when responder is 4=5=1=3, as an example, since he may be truly stuck over 2♣ with 7-9 hcp, so an analogous issue can and does arise.

Reading the options in that context:

1. I do accept that the problem arises. It is an effect of a natural, wide-range opening style. Other styles have different flaws.

2. I strain to rebid 2N. I am not bothered by 2=2=4=5 or 2=2=5=4 so long as I have the other major stopped and the requisite strength.

3. Anyone who opens 1♣ with the intention of reversing into 2♦ on a 5=4 hand is woefully ignorant or eccentric. The problems with this approach are incredible. I would view anyone who actually did this as a beginner.

4. Yes: this is basic beginner bridge (ie good solid bridge that is taught to beginners and remains valid for all levels of skill)... with enough strength that game is still in the picture opposite a non jump shift rebid by opener, strain to make another bid... if you don't make 'false' preferences here... when do you make them? See how I started this post.

I see some advocate jumpshifting to 3♣ on 17 and 18 counts with 5-4 in the minors. I suppose one could come up with an 18 count on which I would consider it, but no way can you show me a 17 count.. and the 18 would be incredible (note, I am discussing hands with precisely 5-4 in the minors... there are 17 counts on which I would comfortably jumpshift)

Most experts and other modern players respond to 1♦ on very light hands.... we've had several threads on that tendency. Standard methods still use the jumpshift as gf... so as we lower the standards for a response, lowering the standards for a jumpshift doesn't make a great deal of sense: even after decades of inflation in most aspects of life, the trick taking power of declarer and dummy has not increased compared to the trick taking power of defenders' cards.

The players who js with 17-18 5=4 minor hands usually get away with it because most of the time partner has them covered... he has enough to make game and not enough (strength or understanding of what the jumpshift should show) to push to a failing slam. But the fact that bad bidding often goes unpunished doesn't make it any less bad.

[david_c]

I'm not convinced that all of these responses really appreciate the problem. Of course you would take false preference in a standard system. The question was whether this is still best if you systemically open 1♦ with 4=5 minors.

I think I would agree with Brian: take false preference, and don't worry about the possibilty of playing 2♦ on a 4-2 fit. But it seems close to me. It could well be better to pass with 4423 hands and have opener rebid 2NT instead of 2♣ as often as possible.

[Fluffy]

I go for (4) as well, opening 1♦ with 4-5 is an exception, not a rule. 2245 doesn't open 1♦, and when the clubs are good enough you don't open 1♦ either.

The biggest problem I ahve found when opening 1♦ with a 4-5 is that you find out that partner has 5♦ and 6♣ very very late.

[matmat]

jdonn, on Feb 27 2009, 03:41 PM, said:

TylerE, on Feb 27 2009, 03:00 PM, said:

I don't open 1♦ and rebid 2♣ on a 17 point hand. The sequence shows a minimum, that's kinda the point. If 5422 just bid 2NT (Or open 1N with a bad 17), with 5431 open the 5 and JS.

mtvesuvius, on Feb 27 2009, 03:19 PM, said:

You shouldn't have 17-18 HCP here! With 5♣ and 4♦ you reverse, and with 5♦ and 4♣ you jump-shift, this should not be a problem, but it's rare that responder doesn't bid again anyway.

huh??

agree with JD

[peachy]

Having 8-9 HCP as responder, 2C should not be passed whether with 3-2 or 2-3 minors. Opener's 2C rebid is not showing a minimum opener (although that is not denied either), he can be just shy of a jumpshift. Only with a singleton diamond and a very bad responding hand would I ever pass 2C.

In my partnerships, opening 1D with 4-5 minors is allowed if opener is minimum and can see that facing certain responder bid(s) on the 1-level, there could be a rebid problem.

[straube]

peachy, on Feb 27 2009, 11:28 PM, said:

Having 8-9 HCP as responder, 2C should not be passed whether with 3-2 or 2-3 minors. Opener's 2C rebid is not showing a minimum opener (although that is not denied either), he can be just shy of a jumpshift. Only with a singleton diamond and a very bad responding hand would I ever pass 2C.

In my partnerships, opening 1D with 4-5 minors is allowed if opener is minimum and can see that facing certain responder bid(s) on the 1-level, there could be a rebid problem.

I don't like the idea of giving a false preference to 2D and then discovering...

5-3-2-3 opposite 1-3-4-5

This structure is set up to give partner a choice and then encourage him to make the wrong choice.

[kenrexford]

This problem is precisely why I came up with using a 2♦ opening for the minors in a natural system.

Minor two-suiters have a ridiculous range problem. Because you want to pen Rule-of-Twenty hands, but because you cannot effectively handle very strong minor two-suiters with a 2♣ opening, you will perhaps open minor two-suiters with anything from 10 HCP to perhaps 23 or 24 HCP. With two rebid options to split the 15 possible HCP strengths, there is trouble.

Tossing in an intermediate 2♦ opening cuts out the middle. This enables 1♦...2♣ to be limited, and it allows Responder to pass 2♣ more comfortably with more hands. Conversely, it places on the table the intermediate point range in one bid, allowing tweener hands to assess combined playing strength before any interference is even possible.

There are, as with many conventions, other benefits, some pitfalls (some of which can be avoided if discussed), alternative-option for 2♦ loss, and the like, of course. But, this problem being discussed is definitely one of the motives for the call in natural bidding. (The origin of the call is in strong club or strong-club-canape, where different problems are addressed, but it translates into natural for this anfd other reasons.)

[peachy]

straube, on Feb 28 2009, 12:27 AM, said:

peachy, on Feb 27 2009, 11:28 PM, said:

Having 8-9 HCP as responder, 2C should not be passed whether with 3-2 or 2-3 minors. Opener's 2C rebid is not showing a minimum opener (although that is not denied either), he can be just shy of a jumpshift.  Only with a singleton diamond and a very bad responding hand would I ever pass 2C.

In my partnerships, opening 1D with 4-5 minors is allowed if opener is minimum and can see that facing certain responder bid(s) on the 1-level, there could be a rebid problem.

I don't like the idea of giving a false preference to 2D and then discovering...

5-3-2-3 opposite 1-3-4-5

This structure is set up to give partner a choice and then encourage him to make the wrong choice.

My experience [in my partnerships] is that opening 1D with 4-5 minors is rare and ending up in 4-2 diamonds is even rarer. Of course, when it happens and we had 5-3 club fit on theside, is not "nice" but I can live with it and enjoy the benefit this strategy gives in the majority of such hands.

[peachy]

straube, on Feb 28 2009, 12:27 AM, said:

peachy, on Feb 27 2009, 11:28 PM, said:

Having 8-9 HCP as responder, 2C should not be passed whether with 3-2 or 2-3 minors. Opener's 2C rebid is not showing a minimum opener (although that is not denied either), he can be just shy of a jumpshift.  Only with a singleton diamond and a very bad responding hand would I ever pass 2C.

In my partnerships, opening 1D with 4-5 minors is allowed if opener is minimum and can see that facing certain responder bid(s) on the 1-level, there could be a rebid problem.

I don't like the idea of giving a false preference to 2D and then discovering...

5-3-2-3 opposite 1-3-4-5

This structure is set up to give partner a choice and then encourage him to make the wrong choice.

My experience [in my partnerships] is that opening 1D with 4-5 minors is rare and ending up in 4-2 diamonds is even rarer. Of course, when it happens and we had 5-3 club fit on theside, is not "nice" but I can live with it and enjoy the benefit this strategy gives in the majority of such hands.

[Winstonm]

Quote

I don't like the idea of giving a false preference to 2D and then discovering...

Then don't do it.