[paulg]

One English pair, members of the EBU team in the Camrose on March 6-8, are playing Submarine Club. We played them last year in the Spring Foursomes, when they were in Frances' team, but we are still uncertain of how best to defend their major suit openers. Namely,

1♥=4+ spades, 11-16 pts, may be canape
1♠=5+ hearts, 11-16 pts

Neither opening bid is forcing.

Defending the 1♥ opener is not too difficult, but still unsure what the best use for double, 1♠ and 1NT are.

Defending the 1♠ is trickier as they have stolen your natural 1♠ overcall.

Suggestions welcome.

Thanks,

Paul

[straube]

dbl-takeout of hearts
1N-natural
2m-natural
2H-spade overcall
2S-preempt

after 1H

1S-heart overcall
1N-natural
2m-natural
2H-preempt
2S-michaels

[PrecisionL]

cardsharp, on Feb 23 2009, 02:18 PM, said:

One English pair, members of the EBU team in the Camrose on March 6-8, are playing Submarine Club. We played them last year in the Spring Foursomes, when they were in Frances' team,

Paul

Submarine Club: What are the rest of the Opening Bids and responses to 1♣?

[shevek]

I suppose the practioners can call this method whatever they want. To me, "submarine" is synonymous with one-under transfers, so 1♣ = hearts & 1♦ = spades, as in most of the Antipodean strong pass systems, where the term originated in early 80s.

Anyway, the "defence" is to do whatever you do when somebody pokes a strange bid under your nose. Our default method is to bid their artificial 4-carder naturally at the 1 and 2 level, while double is tko of the shown suit. No need to lose sleep preparing something specific. Sit back and enjoy.

[paulg]

The mild concern is the hand where you'd overcall a normal 1♥ opener with 1♠, given that the auction (1♠=hearts) - something - (4♥) can be made with various strength hands in a strong club system.

Now you can lose the spade fit unless double shows spades. Otoh losing the takeout double is quite a problem too, and using the 1NT as something other than a strong notrump has downsides.

The convention card is available on the BGB website (PDF).

[akhare]

How about the following following over 1♠:

X = Power X (15+), including hands that would overcall 1N
1N: Takeout of ♥s (NTO)
2♣/2♦: Natural, but limited
2♥: 4♠ and a longer minor
2♠: ♠

[straube]

cardsharp, on Feb 24 2009, 03:57 AM, said:

The mild concern is the hand where you'd overcall a normal 1♥ opener with 1♠, given that the auction (1♠=hearts) - something - (4♥) can be made with various strength hands in a strong club system.

Now you can lose the spade fit unless double shows spades. Otoh losing the takeout double is quite a problem too, and using the 1NT as something other than a strong notrump has downsides.

The convention card is available on the BGB website (PDF).

In a sense, this is a wash. They've disadvantaged themselves opening 1S when they have hearts so that they can't play 1H. So you ought not regret that they've thusly forced you to show spades at the 2-level.

[awm]

Perhaps something like:

X = 5+♠ normal spade overcall, or a "takeout double" with sound values and 4+♠
1NT-2♦ = as if 1♥ opened
2♥ = artificial; strong hand with a long minor
2♠ = two suiter ♠ + minor (NF)
2NT+ = again as if 1♥ opened

After 1♠-X, opponents usually are not going to stick this contract out. Subsequent doubles are takeout oriented. If opener bids a suit it doesn't cancel the message of "spades" -- for example something like 1♠!-X-2♥-P-P-3♣ is just a nice ♠+♣ two-suiter. While there is a bit of ambiguity about opener's spade length, you aren't really going to miss many spade fits in auctions like 1♠-X-4♥ (okay maybe you lose a 5-3 spade fit or play a 4-3 occasionally).

You lose the spade preempt in order to handle the "power double with a minor" hands; this is necessary since it's best for double to guarantee spades (allowing advancer to pass it if opponents try passing 1♠X). On the other hand, the spade preempt over 1♥ is not necessarily the most effective call, since opponents already have exchanged a lot of information.

[JanM]

Whenever they take space away with a bid you have to give up something. So over 1♠ you have to give up either the TO DBL of hearts or the natural 1♠ overcall or the natural strong 1NT overcall. I tend to lean towards doing what feels most natural to the individual player. Personally, I'd play that DBL is TO of hearts and 1NT is natural, losing the 1♠ overcall. That's because I like to get back to what's "natural" to me as quickly as possible. Of course, that means that the DBL will include hands that I would have overcalled 1♠ over 1♥. People who are less concerned with "comfort level" might judge that it's more important to be able to show the spade hands, and it's surely right to do that by having DBL show spades and 1NT be takeout or natural (depending which one you've decided to give up), so that if responder passes the bid showing spades, advancer can pass also and make the opener tell us more. There's a lot to be said for playing 2♥ or 2♠ as an Astro type cue bid if you give up the Takeout DBL.

I had to smile when I looked through this thread and saw that the first suggested defense over 1♥ didn't have a meaning for 1♠. That's the sort of defense the people playing this bid would like you to use, of course - you don't make any use of the extra space they've given you. I don't know what the best use of 1♠ is, but I'm sure that it should be used! I think the best choices are:
DBL is TO of spades
1♠ is natural

DBL is TO of spades
1♠ is an Astro-type cue bid (4 hearts, longer minor)

DBL is hearts
1♠ is TO of spades

I'd probably opt for the Astro cue bid, but I don't have any strong feelings.

[paulg]

Thanks to everyone for their comments.

My views generally mirror Jan's, but we can see how everyone copes in the vugraph presentation of the Camrose on March 6-8.

As we'll have a full record of every board they play those who are interested will be able to analyse how specific defences would, or would not, have succeeded.

Paul

[straube]

JanM said:

I had to smile when I looked through this thread and saw that the first suggested defense over 1♥ didn't have a meaning for 1♠. That's the sort of defense the people playing this bid would like you to use, of course - you don't make any use of the extra space they've given you.

No. I replied first to his main question which was what to do over their 1S bid.

Over their 1H opening, I used 1S to show hearts.

[JanM]

straube, on Feb 24 2009, 03:02 PM, said:

JanM said:

I had to smile when I looked through this thread and saw that the first suggested defense over 1♥ didn't have a meaning for 1♠. That's the sort of defense the people playing this bid would like you to use, of course - you don't make any use of the extra space they've given you.

No. I replied first to his main question which was what to do over their 1S bid.

Over their 1H opening, I used 1S to show hearts.

I'm sorry, I knew there weren't enough bids there, and I thought that it was 1♠ that was missing - I now see that it is DBL that is missing.

[straube]

Thanks for pointing that out. Dbl is a takeout of spades.

[JanM]

straube, on Feb 24 2009, 06:27 PM, said:

Thanks for pointing that out. Dbl is a takeout of spades.

I think that using DBL to show hearts and 1♠ as a Takeout of spades is clearly better (it leaves your side flexible after the bid that shows hearts, since if responder passes, advancer can too). I don't know whether the most useful "extra" thing to show over 1♥ showing 4+ spades is hearts, though. There's nothing wrong with using 2♥ for hearts (and some good things, certainly compared to using 1♠ for hearts - 1♠ doesn't take up any space and leaves the opponents with an easy way to show different spade hands). On the other hand, we might have spades (opponents only promised 4 remember) and we certainly might have 4 hearts and a longer minor, which is normally an awkward hand to show at a reasonable level over 1♠. So I think using the "extra" bid for one of those hands makes more sense than using it for a hand that is comfortable shown by "normal" bidding over a bid that shows spades.

[dake50]

Toss in Amsbury Jump overcalls: 2H: 6+H (to sit X), or 3-suits not H (to Red if X), or 2-unbids (new suit if X) with ParaDox advances: jump says 4+fit somewhere, correct if X.

[straube]

I think I like dbl to show hearts and 1S as a takeout. As you say, this leaves pass as a more frequent action. Partner can pass (with nothing better to do) and let opener guess.

It also leaves 2H available as a weaker way to show hearts (presumably with more length)

Of course dbl (as hearts) will also leave plenty of room for the opponents to show spade raises but it also leaves room for us.

I think 1S as an Astro bid has merit. I guess I think that a takeout dbl will sometimes serve as well (e.g. 1-4-3-5) but at other times I would prefer to have the canape bid (e.g. 3-4-1-5). It seems like it's a tradeoff between showing the Astro hands and having a way to show a weaker hand with hearts. I think I prefer the latter, but both will have wins.

I don't care for 1S showing spades. It seems that I would only then want to overcall 1S with a pretty decent spade suit and I think this will be low frequency and of marginal benefit compared to other uses of 1S.

[mike777]

cardsharp, on Feb 23 2009, 02:18 PM, said:

One English pair, members of the EBU team in the Camrose on March 6-8, are playing Submarine Club. We played them last year in the Spring Foursomes, when they were in Frances' team, but we are still uncertain of how best to defend their major suit openers. Namely,

1♥=4+ spades, 11-16 pts, may be canape
1♠=5+ hearts, 11-16 pts

Neither opening bid is forcing.

Defending the 1♥ opener is not too difficult, but still unsure what the best use for double, 1♠ and 1NT are.

Defending the 1♠ is trickier as they have stolen your natural 1♠ overcall.

Suggestions welcome.

Thanks,

Paul

Side question, are they required to have a suggested written defense in the UK that you are free to refer to at the table and discuss before the match?

As a nonexpert two options to consider:
1) Play suggested written defense
2) play normal....over 1h=x=takeout of h.....1s=spades....1nt=standard; over 1s=x=takeout of s.....1nt=standard.......2 c or 2d level bids natural.

[paulg]

mike777, on Feb 25 2009, 05:30 AM, said:

Side question, are they required to have a suggested written defense in the UK that you are free to refer to at the table and discuss before the match?

This method is not permitted in any event in Scotland but is permitted in almost all tournaments in England and Wales. In the UK the concept of written defences to conventional calls is non-existent - a method is either legal or not and tournament players are expected to cope with the legal ones.

The Camrose uses the WBF system classification. This system is not a HUM and not a Brown Sticker Convention, so it can be played without a problem. If it were a HUM or BSC, then written defences would be permitted but it's not close to meeting the criteria for this.

Paul

[mike777]

cardsharp, on Feb 25 2009, 03:35 AM, said:

mike777, on Feb 25 2009, 05:30 AM, said:

Side question, are they required to have a suggested written defense in the UK that you are free to refer to at the table and discuss before the match?

This method is not permitted in any event in Scotland but is permitted in almost all tournaments in England and Wales. In the UK the concept of written defences to conventional calls is non-existent - a method is either legal or not and tournament players are expected to cope with the legal ones.

The Camrose uses the WBF system classification. This system is not a HUM and not a Brown Sticker Convention, so it can be played without a problem. If it were a HUM or BSC, then written defences would be permitted but it's not close to meeting the criteria for this.

Paul

1) ok.....no suggested defense.....I fall back on my option two.......KISS

2) Whatever Mrs. Martel says.....I agree!

[mike777]

"If it were a HUM or BSC, then written defences would be permitted but it's not close to meeting the criteria for this."






Side note I will let you tell me what is "close" to HUM or BSC. Please note close does not mean...HUM or BSC ...it means close.......

I trust you when you say this is not "close"


given that you basically tell us nonexeperts this is far from HUM or BSC we got an issue.