[Mbodell]

Playing standard methods I tend to often open 3145 1♣. I bid 2♦/1♦, 2♣/1♥, and 2♦/1♠ with hands that are about this strength when I open 1♣. On this particular hand though, with AKxx of diamonds and Axxxx of clubs my diamonds are enough stronger than my clubs that I'd probably open 1♦. Make the ♦K the ♣K and I'd be opening 1♣ for sure.

[the hog]

"That makes it no longer a "lie." Rather, the call actually shows this."

It actually shows 3-4 Spades. So you are saying that with 6/7C and 5S you open 1S? If your response shows exactly 3-4 S, that is what you are forced to do unless you have some weird jump or artificial bid at your dsiposal.

Further, Ken, thats fine if you and your partner have agreed to do this, but that doesn't provide a solution for the problem which a normal partnership would use. (I mean one using standard methods).

[jdonn]

I agree with Ken in that I don't know the point of saying "I don't believe in lying to my partner." Neither do I, but in standard methods (ignoring countries where rebidding the minor with 5 is 'standard') every opening/rebid after 1♥ is a lie. 1♠ shows four, 1NT shows a max of 14, 2♣ shows six, 2♦ shows more strength, 1♦/2♣ shows 5+ diamonds.

I don't like lying to partner either. But when every bid would be a lie, I just try to choose the best one.

[kenrexford]

The_Hog, on Feb 22 2009, 02:44 AM, said:

"That makes it no longer a "lie." Rather, the call actually shows this."

It actually shows 3-4 Spades. So you are saying that with 6/7C and 5S you open 1S? If your response shows exactly 3-4 S, that is what you are forced to do unless you have some weird jump or artificial bid at your dsiposal.

Further, Ken, thats fine if you and your partner have agreed to do this, but that doesn't provide a solution for the problem which a normal partnership would use. (I mean one using standard methods).

OK, to be precise, it shows 4 spades and 5 clubs (although you can opt to lie with a 4-4 COV hand), or 3♠/5♣ precisely, or a 5♠/6♣ (or longer but always more clubs) wild two-suiter.

I thought that part would be obvious.

Furthermore, it does provide a solution for what a normal partnership would use. A normal partnership would (in theory) discuss this situation just like they would discuss when to raise a major with three-card support. If the approach of rebidding 1♠ makes theory sense, then it would be adopted.

Sure, a partnership who does not discuss this might not reach that solution. And, of all of the partnerships, many have not discussed this situation. However, all people now reading this post will be considering this situation and will likely discuss this with their partner. Hence, in the limited BBF pool, especially as to those who are reading this post, "normal" presumably now means "discussed."

[the hog]

"OK, to be precise, it shows 4 spades and 5 clubs (although you can opt to lie with a 4-4 COV hand), or 3♠/5♣ precisely, or a 5♠/6♣ (or longer but always more clubs) wild two-suiter."

So its forcing I assume. Again that is not what most people seem to play here, though I agree I prefer this.

"I thought that part would be obvious."

Not from what you posted.

[mike777]

dbsboy, on Feb 20 2009, 10:27 AM, said:

<!-- ONEHAND begin --><table border='1'> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td> Dealer: </td> <td> South </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Vul: </td> <td> ???? </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Scoring: </td> <td> IMP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table> <tr> <th> <span class='spades'> ♠ </span> </th> <td> Axx </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='hearts'> ♥ </span> </th> <td> x </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='diamonds'> ♦ </span> </th> <td> AKxx </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='clubs'> ♣ </span> </th> <td> Axxxx </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- ONEHAND end -->

I am a strong believer in opening 1♣ with 5 Clubs and 4 Diamonds. However, I found a really difficult rebid problem no matter partner responds in any Major. It seems that I cannot show my strength and shape effectively.

If I open 1♦, will the bidding go much smoother?

Lots of opinions on 4d and 5c type hands. I am playing open strongest suit so in this case I open 1d planning on bidding 2c over 1h.

That means if K of d is K of C then I open one club and will rebid 2c over 1h.

[Apollo81]

My general strategy with this shape and not enough to reverse is:

- with a singleton Q or better, treat the hand as balanced
- else if the 5-card suit is very strong, rebid it
- else if the 3-card major is unstopped (T98 or worse), open 1♦ (the diamonds are strong by inference in this case)
- else if <15 hcp, rebid 1NT
- else, choose the above action that most closely matches my hand

The OP fits into the last category. I think the best lie is to open 1♦ since the diamonds are stronger than the clubs, and the hand is clearly (IMO) too strong for a 1NT rebid.

[Fluffy]

jdonn, on Feb 20 2009, 04:50 PM, said:

I think opening 1NT is better than some of the suggestions.

I agree with this. And to add more, if I was a bit weaker, I would rebid 1NT over 1♠ to ensure we don't lose our 5-3 fit if its there (I cannot raise on 3 cards, remember)

[bill1157]

I ♦ is the only opening that makes sense here, without special agreements there should be no disagreement about it.

Bill

[jmcw]

Whatever you open a 1NT rebid is out of the question. So before deciding on what to open you should decide what to rebid after P responds 1H as expected.
If your system allows for a 1D open, then you have no problem. If you open 1C then rebid 1S this clearly facilitates P continuation.
For me its a 1D opening, but I agree this is not everyone's choice.

[Edmunte1]

I'll sugest you some developments i played, that worked well:
With 5♣+4♦ always open 1♣. Now:
-if you hold 11-14(bad 15), and partner bids your singleton bid 1NT, if he bids your tripleton bid 2M;
-if you hold 15+ 16, rebid 2♣, and over 2♦ relay use 2OM to show a 54 15-16 hcp ♣+other (♦ or♥), and if partner is intrested you can show your shape later;
-with 17+ make a reverse.

[hanp]

Edmunte1, on Feb 25 2009, 04:29 PM, said:

-if you hold 15+ 16, rebid 2♣.

I think rebidding 2C on this hand is really bad. You claim it worked well, what does that mean? Did you keep track of all the hands when you rebid 2C on a poor 5-card suit? And how about the hands where you had a good 6-card club suit and partner didn't trust your rebid?

Yes of course it worked well when partner bid 2D next and allowed you to clarify your hand, but much more often you won't have this opportunity.

I think on this hand a 1S rebid is better if you decide to open 1C. And in general I don't like rebidding rules for difficult hands that don't take suit quality into account.

I haven't bid 1S on this hand type often enough to claim it works well, but I am fairly confident it is better than 2C.

[lexlogan]

When I play with partners who believe in opening this sort of hand 1♦, I find that they are apt to pass the sequence 1♦-1♥-2♣ with, say,
Axx Kxxx xx Jxx because "I couldn't go back to diamonds since you might be 4-5". A corollary to opening 1♦ with a minimum 4-5 would seem to be opening
1♣ with a hand such as KQx x AQxxx AQxx, showing your strength via a reverse. I've never seen anyone who advocated the 4-5 opening address this issue. For me, opening 1♣ and rebidding 2♣ seems to work out far more often than not -- odds are, you have at least a 5-3 club fit, and you'll rarely find it unless you rebid the clubs.

One point, of course, is how likely partner is to bypass a diamond suit when responding. The argument for opening 1♦ becomes stronger if partner tends to suppress diamonds over clubs. I'm inclined to a more up-the-line style.

[mikestar]

My preferred solution is to widen the 1NT rebid a bit to say 15 HCP, and reduce the reverse requirement to 16 HCP. The we can always open these hand 1♣.

[hanp]

I guess Kleinman is right about the 16-18 NT, it solves all problems.

[mikeh]

I have been a 1♠ bidder several times, over the years, with this hand-type... a hand type not affected by whether one chooses to rebid 1N with a stiff in partner's major, because the strength is too great for that call. So far, nothing bad has happened, but there are responding hands on which I would raise a 1♠ rebid to 2♠ with only 3 card support. Such are extremely rare... but the BW MSC has had that hand type at least a couple of times over the past 30 years (okay.. so it IS rare)

[benlessard]

Rebidding or opening 1Nt with a Major stiff is really against my style.

I think its way better to open 1D and rebid 2C then to open 1C and rebid 1S (forcing or not) and its not close at all.

I also prefer to open 1D and rebid 2C than 1C---2C.

[Edmunte1]

hanp, on Feb 25 2009, 10:25 PM, said:

Edmunte1, on Feb 25 2009, 04:29 PM, said:

-if you hold 15+ 16, rebid 2♣.

I think rebidding 2C on this hand is really bad. You claim it worked well, what does that mean? Did you keep track of all the hands when you rebid 2C on a poor 5-card suit? And how about the hands where you had a good 6-card club suit and partner didn't trust your rebid?

Yes of course it worked well when partner bid 2D next and allowed you to clarify your hand, but much more often you won't have this opportunity.

I think on this hand a 1S rebid is better if you decide to open 1C. And in general I don't like rebidding rules for difficult hands that don't take suit quality into account.

I haven't bid 1S on this hand type often enough to claim it works well, but I am fairly confident it is better than 2C.

You're right Han, when i wrote 15+ i meant with a good source of tricks.
Lying abouth 6th club is compensated by extraforce, but the source of tricks provided by the good long suit should remain, so you need good clubs for bidding 2♣ with 5 cards. On this board i would have rebid 1NT due to the lack of suit quality

[snillrik13]

Ken Rexford is 100% right. Walsh is a great convention and this hand is well described with a 1 spade rebid over a 1 heart reply. All other rebids (or opening with 1 diamond) makes life difficult for partner.
Over 1 spade I have an easy rebid of 2 diamonds.

Best regards
Anders (European)

[hrothgar]

Free, on Feb 21 2009, 08:18 PM, said:

Where's Richard with his 1NT opening?

Sorry... Works been busy.

I'd open 1N on this all the live long day