[awm]

Suppose you're playing a strong club system and have the auction:

1♦ - 1M
2♣ - ???

Your agreement is that this sequence by opener shows at least four in each minor. It will typically be 5/4, in which case either suit could be longer (of course 5/5 is possible too). Assume that hands with a two-card disparity (6♦-4♣ or 4♦-6♣) will normally open or rebid differently.

Okay, so you've heard the auction, say you have a hand where game is unlikely opposite the limited opening and you have equal length (3-3 or 2-2) in the minors. How do you decide whether to pass or correct? What factors effect your decision?

[Echognome]

Equal length I would pass with any hand where game is highly unlikely and "correct" with any hand where we might have game if partner can bid again over 2♦. I mean I don't see any other basis on which to judge when I have equal length.

Now if I have 2-2 in the minors, then I have 9 cards in the majors. I won't be 6-3 (else I would have rebid my major), so I would have to be 5-4. I assume I don't play reverse flannery and it wouldn't matter anyway if I were 4=5=2=2.

[straube]

I agree with Echnochrome and I definitely like Reverse Flannery, especially over a "Precision" 1D. You can bid 2H with anything from 0 to 10 or so, depending how strong your 1D can be.

You could also agree to rebid 1S with 3-1-(54) which prevents landing in the occasional 4-2 fit (opposite 4-5-2-2). I think 1S is technically correct because it is more flexible and allows for 1N (and 2S) and also allows for XYZ auctions...one obviously has to have good followups to discover whether opener has this hand.

If you're going to be in a silly contract, prefer a major to a minor.

[awm]

Considering that you're playing a strong club, the points for 1♦-1M-2♣ are limited to something like 11-15. And with a 6-5 hand or the like opener could certainly rebid 3♣. And I already mentioned that 6-4 hands open or rebid differently.

My point is, I'm having trouble constructing the hand where opener bids on after 1♦-1M-2♣-2♦. A random 15-count shouldn't be enough. A 6-4 15-count wouldn't bid this way (would open 2♣ or rebid 2♦ or 3♦ or open 1♣). A maximum 6-5 or 5-5 might've rebid 3♣ over 1M. So while the comment about "wanting to keep the auction alive in case opener is worth another bid" would make a lot of sense in a 2/1-style system where the 2♣ rebid can be quite a good hand, I don't know that it makes as much sense in a strong club context.

[Echognome]

awm, on Feb 18 2009, 11:59 AM, said:

Considering that you're playing a strong club, the points for 1♦-1M-2♣ are limited to something like 11-15. And with a 6-5 hand or the like opener could certainly rebid 3♣. And I already mentioned that 6-4 hands open or rebid differently.

My point is, I'm having trouble constructing the hand where opener bids on after 1♦-1M-2♣-2♦. A random 15-count shouldn't be enough. A 6-4 15-count wouldn't bid this way (would open 2♣ or rebid 2♦ or 3♦ or open 1♣). A maximum 6-5 or 5-5 might've rebid 3♣ over 1M. So while the comment about "wanting to keep the auction alive in case opener is worth another bid" would make a lot of sense in a 2/1-style system where the 2♣ rebid can be quite a good hand, I don't know that it makes as much sense in a strong club context.

I'm thinking more about a (13)=(45) hand with support for your major. I would think that in precision you would raise with a minimum and bid 2♣ with a max. Or do you always raise?

Alternatively, if all of these bids do not exist, it seems somewhat of a waste of space. Maybe you bid this way with a 6-4 with a bad primary suit, but max values otherwise?

[TimG]

awm, on Feb 17 2009, 06:51 PM, said:

Okay, so you've heard the auction, say you have a hand where game is unlikely opposite the limited opening and you have equal length (3-3 or 2-2) in the minors. How do you decide whether to pass or correct? What factors effect your decision?

Suppose you've heard the auction and you have a hand that might make game opposite a maximum limited opening (say a 10 count) and you have equal length (33 or 22) in the minors. What do you do?

[awm]

TimG, on Feb 18 2009, 05:31 PM, said:

awm, on Feb 17 2009, 06:51 PM, said:

Okay, so you've heard the auction, say you have a hand where game is unlikely opposite the limited opening and you have equal length (3-3 or 2-2) in the minors. How do you decide whether to pass or correct? What factors effect your decision?

Suppose you've heard the auction and you have a hand that might make game opposite a maximum limited opening (say a 10 count) and you have equal length (33 or 22) in the minors. What do you do?

It seems obvious that you usually have to bid 2NT. I suppose you could play 4th suit as forcing one round only and bid that.

[awm]

So here are some things I thought of that might be relevant (or not):

(1) If you think opener might have a 3-card raise and bid this way (I actually always raise with 3145 but maybe this is not universal) then it might be beneficial to correct to diamonds when holding five cards in the original major or when holding a very strong four-card major, and to pass when holding a weak four-card suit.

(2) It might be good to pass more often on the reasoning that if opener has five really good diamonds and four lousy clubs he could have rebid 2♦, whereas if the opposite is true he probably wouldn't open 2♣.

(3) It might make sense to look at the suit quality in your hand somehow (i.e. go for the minor where you have an honor as opposed to the one where you don't, or even vice-versa).

(4) Especially holding 2-2, it might make sense to correct in order to give RHO one more chance to "save you" from a lousy contract.

[Echognome]

Adam,

I think what you say makes sense. Reason (3) isn't all that compelling to me, as I think it is more than outweighed by the others. For (1) it is definitely a style issue whether any hands fit what I like to call "bidding around the horn". It's obviously a style that is common in standard bidding, but it's not clear whether it works as well in a strong club context.

-Gnome

[straube]

awm, on Feb 18 2009, 05:35 PM, said:

TimG, on Feb 18 2009, 05:31 PM, said:

awm, on Feb 17 2009, 06:51 PM, said:

Okay, so you've heard the auction, say you have a hand where game is unlikely opposite the limited opening and you have equal length (3-3 or 2-2) in the minors. How do you decide whether to pass or correct? What factors effect your decision?

Suppose you've heard the auction and you have a hand that might make game opposite a maximum limited opening (say a 10 count) and you have equal length (33 or 22) in the minors. What do you do?

It seems obvious that you usually have to bid 2NT. I suppose you could play 4th suit as forcing one round only and bid that.

If opener's range is 11-15, I don't see how you find 3N for 10 opposite 15. Playing 1D-1M, 2C-2N with 10 is losing bridge. And there isn't a lot opener can do after a correction except to show 3-card support for partner (if that's possible) or perhaps a maximum 5m/5m (if that's possible).

I like to raise partner's major directly with the 5431 hand as well. I suppose you could direct raise with a minimum and delay raise (after a preference to 2D) with a maximum, but I don't like that method.

I think awm had a point in that opener might choose to rebid 2D with a good five-card diamond suit and four bad clubs, so I guess I'll pass 2C with the 22 or 33 shape.

[Apollo81]

awm, on Feb 17 2009, 07:51 PM, said:

Suppose you're playing a strong club system and have the auction:

1♦ - 1M
2♣ - ???

Your agreement is that this sequence by opener shows at least four in each minor. It will typically be 5/4, in which case either suit could be longer (of course 5/5 is possible too). Assume that hands with a two-card disparity (6♦-4♣ or 4♦-6♣) will normally open or rebid differently.

Okay, so you've heard the auction, say you have a hand where game is unlikely opposite the limited opening and you have equal length (3-3 or 2-2) in the minors. How do you decide whether to pass or correct? What factors effect your decision?

With longer clubs tend to open 2♣ or rebid 1NT. Thus take preferences to diamonds like normal bidding.

[mtvesuvius]

Apollo81, on Feb 20 2009, 01:30 PM, said:

awm, on Feb 17 2009, 07:51 PM, said:

Suppose you're playing a strong club system and have the auction:

1♦ - 1M
2♣ - ???

Your agreement is that this sequence by opener shows at least four in each minor. It will typically be 5/4, in which case either suit could be longer (of course 5/5 is possible too). Assume that hands with a two-card disparity (6♦-4♣ or 4♦-6♣) will normally open or rebid differently.

Okay, so you've heard the auction, say you have a hand where game is unlikely opposite the limited opening and you have equal length (3-3 or 2-2) in the minors. How do you decide whether to pass or correct? What factors effect your decision?

With longer clubs tend to open 2♣ or rebid 1NT. Thus take preferences to diamonds like normal bidding.

So when partner bids 1♥ over 1♦ and you are 3=1=4=5 you will do what? This is the problem that arises, not so much on 4=1=3=5 becuase that usually is opened 2♣, or any other distrubution can open or rebid NT, but this and 1=4=4=4 after partner bids 1♠ are the problem distrubutions. I usually treat it like a standard 1♦ opener, because with 3=1=4=5 most people open 1♦ anyway... So I stick with the field.

[jdonn]

My solution was always to rebid diamond with 5 when 5-4 in the minors with no other good rebid. It's not something I like to do, but it completely clarifies the 1♦ then 2♣ auctions, which I think is a bigger compensating gain. I preferred to keep that 2♣ opener at 6, so opening those hands 2♣ was not an option.