[LH2650]

"After one club — (one of a major) — double — (pass) — ?, opener’s two-diamond rebid does not show extra values." - Bridge World Standard

In undiscussed areas, I tend to assume BWS. That said, I have discussed this with only one partner, and we play it as showing extra values. However, we also play that 1N does not suggest a ♥ stopper.

[straube]

LH2650, on Feb 16 2009, 06:02 PM, said:

"After one club — (one of a major) — double — (pass) — ?, opener’s two-diamond rebid does not show extra values." - Bridge World Standard

In undiscussed areas, I tend to assume BWS.  That said, I have discussed this with only one partner, and we play it as showing extra values.  However, we also play that 1N does not suggest a ♥ stopper.

How does BWS define the negative double?

[neilkaz]

I'll chime in with my 2 cents worth and mention that Bergen's NegX book says that this sequence is a reverse.

It is also very useful to play after the 1♣...2♦ reverse that the 4th suit is Leb and wants badly to sign off and even can pass a 2NT rebid from a flattish (for a reverse) opener with the 4th suit likely stopped.

This negX sequence also shows why in S. Am we prefer to open 1♦ when 44 in majors lacking 4♠

[Winstonm]

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If you're playing a standard system (like SAYC or 2/1), then you have a bigger problem if 1D-1L, 2C can be either 5/4 or 4/5 and something like 11 to 17. Probably what you're playing is that 1D-1L, 2C shows either 11-15 with 4/5 or 11-17 with 5/4.

I have to differ with your analysis. The entire object of opening the 4-card suit is the concept of preparedness, i.e., having a convenient bid to make when partner makes an inconvenient bid and your hand is not suitable for a NT rebid.

This is the reason many fine players will still open 1H with 4H and 5D - I bet under the right situation died-in-the-wool 4-card majorites like Eddie Kantar and Bob Hamman would still open 1H on some hands.

The same holds true in the minors. If you believe like the older players that 1345 is not NT shape, then over 1D-1S you would rebid 2C. The secret to making this work is for responder to never hold 2-2 in the minors.

So the concept of 2D after the negative double as a reverse means that you always open 1C when 45 and always rebid 1N with 13 or 22 major shape. This is the only way 2D can be a guaranteed reverse after the double.

So if you had A, 245, AKJ9, 108742 you would open 1C and then you can't bid 2D after 1H-X because it would be a reverse.

Hmmm. Well, I guess evolution doesn't always improve the species.

[benlessard]

I think the chance to bid a 2nd natural suit is more important than the chance of reversing a level lower. There are many hand where you would rebid 1Nt but after the overcall and the neg X bidding diamonds will turn better. I hate to rebid 1Nt without a stop and rebid 2C with a lousy suit more then bidding my 2nd suit even if it mean partner has to preferrence me to the 3 level.

Many 2245 are 1C opening followed by 1Nt. But after the overcall and the neg X 2D as non-reverse is a nice possibility even at the risk of playing 3C instead of 2C.


1C------(1S)--------X--------(P)
2C------(2S) all pass

vs

1C-------(1S)-------X--------(P)
2D-------(2S)------- here responder can easily be 3451

[jdonn]

Winstonm, on Feb 17 2009, 01:30 AM, said:

This is the reason many fine players will still open 1H with 4H and 5D

I think we have a different definition of the word "many". Or maybe it's just the definition of the word "fine" when used in conjunction with "many".

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If you believe like the older players that 1345 is not NT shape, then over 1D-1S you would rebid 2C.  The secret to making this work is for responder to never hold 2-2 in the minors. 

Or 3-3. Or for that matter 2-3 depending on the rest of the hand...

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So the concept of 2D after the negative double as a reverse means that you always open 1C when 45 and always rebid 1N with 13 or 22 major shape.  This is the only way 2D can be a guaranteed reverse after the double.

what the...

Quote

So if you had A, 245, AKJ9, 108742 you would open 1C and then you can't bid 2D after 1H-X because it would be a reverse.

Post that hand and see what people open, even those who 'always' open 1♣ with 4-5 in the minors.

Quote

Hmmm.  Well, I guess evolution doesn't always improve the species.

It's always someone who refused to evolve that says that...

[straube]

Winstonm, on Feb 17 2009, 01:30 AM, said:

Quote

If you're playing a standard system (like SAYC or 2/1), then you have a bigger problem if 1D-1L, 2C can be either 5/4 or 4/5 and something like 11 to 17. Probably what you're playing is that 1D-1L, 2C shows either 11-15 with 4/5 or 11-17 with 5/4.

I have to differ with your analysis. The entire object of opening the 4-card suit is the concept of preparedness, i.e., having a convenient bid to make when partner makes an inconvenient bid and your hand is not suitable for a NT rebid.

This is the reason many fine players will still open 1H with 4H and 5D - I bet under the right situation died-in-the-wool 4-card majorites like Eddie Kantar and Bob Hamman would still open 1H on some hands.

The same holds true in the minors. If you believe like the older players that 1345 is not NT shape, then over 1D-1S you would rebid 2C. The secret to making this work is for responder to never hold 2-2 in the minors.

So the concept of 2D after the negative double as a reverse means that you always open 1C when 45 and always rebid 1N with 13 or 22 major shape. This is the only way 2D can be a guaranteed reverse after the double.

So if you had A, 245, AKJ9, 108742 you would open 1C and then you can't bid 2D after 1H-X because it would be a reverse.

Hmmm. Well, I guess evolution doesn't always improve the species.

Looks like the advantage to your method is preparedness.

The advantage to my method is knowing respective suit lengths and being able to attract a false preference to 2D so that opening hand can bid again.

I've found two links which discuss the 1D-1L, 2C rebid in terms of a forcing bid.

One is K-S...

http://www.bridgehands.com/Conventions/Kap...d_KS_System.htm

and the other is Cole...

http://www.bridgeguy...tions/Cole.html

Both of these use 1D-1L, 3C as an intermediate hand with 5m/5m and
1D-1L, 2D as possibly only 5 diamonds.

I'm not saying that their methods are better. I'm only using them to illustrate that the sequence 1D-1L, 2C is difficult (especially because opener's range is so wide here) and that if some good players thought that 2C ought to be forcing that we might think that it is at least highly encouraging of another bid....which it can't very well be if opener can have 4D and 5C.

As to the hand you suggested, A xxx AKJ9 T8xxx, I would prefer...
1C-1L, 2C to
1D-1L, 2C
but what I really prefer is...
1C-1L, 1N

1N is much better for several reasons....

1. I dislike rebidding a 5-card suit and especially the one you gave me.
2. I leave more room for partner. He can make a GI and we can get out in 2M
.....(this is aided greatly if 1m-2H shows 5S/4H)
3. Partner still has room to find out my exact pattern.
4. 1N usually scores better than 2m
5. Partner ought to be alert to my having a stiff spade anyway for when I'm
.....1-4-4-4 (or would you open 1D and rebid 2C on this as well?)

True, the downside is that partner can't sign off in 2S with only five now. I'll take some losses with this, but I think I gain more.

Now I'll give you a hand. With A AKJ9 xxx T8xxx what's your open and what's your rebid over 1S? I plan to open 1C and rebid 1N.

[barryallen]

Winstonm, on Feb 13 2009, 01:27 PM, said:

jdonn, on Feb 13 2009, 02:14 AM, said:

Winstonm, on Feb 13 2009, 01:12 AM, said:

If my partner has a more pedestrian hand I think he would be disappointed by a reverse.

Could you explain the basis of that comment please?

Sure,

I don't think the hand is good enough for a reverse. I think partner will say in the post mortem, that hand wasn't good enough for a reverse. I would answer, you're right, it isn't good enough for a reverse.

Bridge is never always a game of perfect, but I feel a 2♦ reverse is not that much of an exaggeration. And if I had to choose between a slightly overbid than an underbid, I would go for the slight overbid which leaves plenty of bidding space to sort things out.

[Winstonm]

Quote

Post that hand and see what people open, even those who 'always' open 1♣ with 4-5 in the minors.

Then always doesn't always mean always.

Quote

Hmmm.  Well, I guess evolution doesn't always improve the species.


It's always someone who refused to evolve that says that...

Zactly! LoL. Who said there aren't living dinosaurs?

[jdonn]

Winstonm, on Feb 17 2009, 10:31 AM, said:

Quote

Post that hand and see what people open, even those who 'always' open 1♣ with 4-5 in the minors.

Then always doesn't always mean always.

No, 'always' doesnt mean always.

[jdeegan]

Does 2♦ show extras? Should it? Absent any specific partnership agreement why not just bid a fairly descriptive and unambiguous 3♣?