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Strange 2D response

#1 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2009-February-03, 23:21

A pair at my club plays 1x - 2♦ as EXACTLY 11 points; regardless of shape. Its part of this home-brewed system.

Legal or not?
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#2 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2009-February-03, 23:25

Not legal under the GCC, but legal under the MidChart
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#3 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2009-February-04, 08:43

WOW there's another pair here in Belgium playing this! However, it's in an old fashioned strong ♣ system...
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#4 User is offline   ASkolnick 

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Posted 2009-February-04, 08:55

Remember, a club is at its own discretion to allow any conventions they want. I played at a club where it was relatively liberal with conventions.
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#5 User is offline   rbforster 

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Posted 2009-February-04, 09:10

Phil, on Feb 4 2009, 12:21 AM, said:

A pair at my club plays 1x - 2♦ as EXACTLY 11 points; regardless of shape. Its part of this home-brewed system.

Legal or not?

If by legal, you mean ACBL GCC, it would only be legal over a 1x opening if:

1x was a strong (15+) opening
1x was 1N with a reasonably narrow range of HCP and generally showing a balanced hand
1x was such that 2♦ initiated a game force (maybe Fantunes very sound 1 level openings)
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#6 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2009-February-04, 09:47

Whether this is legal depends on where you are, as regulations differ. While as far as I know "everybody" allows clubs to regulate conventions however they like (within the laws), that doesn't mean that it's necessarily true. There may be some NBO or RA that doesn't allow it. :angry:
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#7 User is offline   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2009-February-04, 10:14

In ACBLand you can play ONE 2/1 response as artificial: Either G.F. or G.I. but not both. The Power System, thus, is not GCC legal. I researched this a few years ago and had e-mail correspondence with ACBL.

Larry
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#8 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2009-February-04, 10:21

PrecisionL, on Feb 4 2009, 07:14 PM, said:

In ACBLand you can play ONE 2/1 response as artificial: Either G.F. or G.I. but not both. The Power System, thus, is not GCC legal. I researched this a few years ago and had e-mail correspondence with ACBL.

Larry

Say what ????

Let's ignore the restrictions surrounding relay systems for the moment.

I thought that something like the following would be perfectly legal

1♥ - (P) - 2♣ = artificial game force (denies 3+ Spades)
1♥ - (P) - 2♦ = artificial game force (promises 3+ Spades)

As I recall, the regulations permit bids that show game forcing values. I don't recall a limitation on the total number of said bids.

I'd be interested in understanding where this (supposed) restriction comes from.
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#9 User is offline   Gerben42 

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Posted 2009-February-04, 10:29

I would prefer the 2♦ response to show the ♦7.
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#10 User is offline   keylime 

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  Posted 2009-February-04, 10:40

Hear hear to that Gerben, especially since Larry owes me a beer from Raleigh.
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#11 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-February-04, 10:42

Phil, on Feb 4 2009, 12:21 AM, said:

A pair at my club plays 1x - 2♦ as EXACTLY 11 points; regardless of shape. Its part of this home-brewed system.

Legal or not?

Who cares if it's legal, don't call the director. You want them to be playing this against you!
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#12 User is offline   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2009-February-04, 12:35

hrothgar, on Feb 4 2009, 11:21 AM, said:

PrecisionL, on Feb 4 2009, 07:14 PM, said:

In ACBLand you can play ONE 2/1 response as artificial:  Either G.F. or G.I. but not both.  The Power System, thus, is not GCC legal.  I researched this a few years ago and had e-mail correspondence with ACBL.

Larry

Say what ????

Let's ignore the restrictions surrounding relay systems for the moment.

I thought that something like the following would be perfectly legal

1♥ - (P) - 2♣ = artificial game force (denies 3+ Spades)
1♥ - (P) - 2♦ = artificial game force (promises 3+ Spades)

As I recall, the regulations permit bids that show game forcing values. I don't recall a limitation on the total number of said bids.

I'd be interested in understanding where this (supposed) restriction comes from.

The restriction comes from ACBL when I queried them on playing the Power System by Klinger that has 1M - 2♣ as Artificial and G.I. and 1M - 2♦ as Artificial and G.F.

They replied (from memory) that these Power bids were not GCC as 2/1 bids in a minor must be either GF or GI but not one of each.

I know Jacoby 2NT is also an artificial bid.

I don't know the legality of your treatment showing or denying 3♠.
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#13 User is offline   ASkolnick 

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Posted 2009-February-04, 15:31

Actually friends of mine wanted to play the power system as well. I believe what makes it illegal from the GCC is you can only play an artificial 2 over 1 response is game forcing, not one or the other. So, you could not play 1M-2c as invitational.

From GCC:
3. CONVENTIONAL RESPONSES WHICH GUARANTEE GAME FORCING OR BETTER VALUES. May NOT be part of a relay system.
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#14 User is offline   brianshark 

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Posted 2009-February-05, 08:00

So you can't play, for example, 2C as an artificial GF and the other 2 bids as natural and 10+?
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#15 User is offline   ASkolnick 

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Posted 2009-February-05, 09:01

No, that you can play.

You cannot have an artificial invitational only.

1S-2C GF is legal.
1S-2X Inv+ is also legal if 2X is natural.
1S-2C Artificial invitational only is not legal.
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#16 User is online   mycroft 

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Posted 2009-February-05, 17:33

No, no, Gerben, that doesn't work. You can't make the beer in a (*) diamond contract. All you are doing here is hogging all the non-beerable contracts, and letting partner make two shots at getting to the right strain in the beerable one.

* In the UWaterloo version of this, insert "non-doubled, non-slam" here. Also, of course, defensive beers count - and are especially refreshing when scored in a diamond contract.
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