[AAr]

I know that Tournament Directors and players often strees claims as how they speed up play.

From playing and kibitizing on BBO, I notice that while accepted claims do speed up play, I notice that rejected claims actually slow down play! In fact, I tend to think that rejected claims slow down play more than accepted claims speed up play. I've hardly ever see a hand with a rejected claim take any less time than average to play. First, there's usually a 30 second to one minute thinking palse before claims get rejected. And, usually, after a claim is rejected, the opponents and declarer play the rest of the hand much slower than normal the rest of the hand, especially during the following trick or two. I hardly ever see a hand with a rejected claim take less than seven minutes.

With that said, if you're going to advertise that claims are going to speed up play, wouldn't it be more accurate that good claims (Claims that are obviously valid as the remaining tricks are obviously yours) speed up play while claims that aren't so obvious (Claims that are so invalid or such that it's somewhat difficult for the opponents to see that they don't have another trick coming ot them) actually tend to slow down play as it'd take at least a minute for opponents to see that they're valid and are more likely to be rejected?

Or, am I wrong about all this?

Thanks!

[hotShot]

A proper claim includes a statement how declarer is going to play.
Online this means typing, for some even in a foreign language. This is inconvenient so people just claim without a comment.
To a WC player the double squeeze play may be obvious, but normal opponents will sometimes need a little time to find that the claim is valid, when no line was stated. (Sometimes I suspect that my claiming opponent does not know how to continue, and is claiming just to test if I find a double dummy way to make his contract...)
Since the default is set to claim all tricks, misclaims happen much more frequently than offline. So you really need to check each claim.

[TimG]

I think you make a significant overbid when you say a claim normally requires 30-60 second of thought before being rejected.

To hotshot's follow-up: I've never seen an attempted online claim based upon a double-squeeze.

[barmar]

TimG, on Jan 27 2009, 08:48 AM, said:

To hotshot's follow-up: I've never seen an attempted online claim based upon a double-squeeze.

Me, either, not even in an expert game. And certainly not without an explanation.

In my experience, claims are contested less than 1 out of 10 times. If they speed up play 90% of the time, and only lengthen it 10% of the time, I think it's a net win.

[AAr]

What I do to have most of my claims accepted is to concede any losing or potentially losing tricks before claiming. I'm no expect and usually don't see squeezes and end-plays (usually rely on finesses and drops) so none of my claims would be based on those.

I do notice that 'the last 5 out of 6 tricks" and such claims are more likely to be rejected, so I avoid these.

I think in MBC, claims are generally a net time gain. But, in tourneys (perhaps except maybe unclocked), where it's mainly how long it takes the slowest table to play that matters most, if nobody claims, the slower tables would be done faster. Because, hands with rejected claims generally take longer than hands with no claims at all. It's just that tables with accepted claims get done faster.

[tbr]

Unless I'm tired, I usually play the hand out because it is quicker than claiming and waiting. Nine times out of ten when opponent's declarer claims, it takes longer to decipher their claims, particularly when they are premature. I will claim when it gets to nothing but trumps left.

[Fluffy]

I don't normally play tournaments, but I play team matches and boards in teh MBC normally with experts (or those who calim to be).

Most of the people I play with just auto accept any claim on defence without even taking a look at the hand.

I agree that tournaments and money tournametns can be a completelly different issue.

[Tola18]

Yeah.
I have met yet another twist on that theme a couple of times.
Tournament. Opps ask to hurry, they must leave soon. So I try to rush: guess of the twoway finesse ok, play trump ace, everyone follows = trumps behaves - claim.
DIRECTOR!

Grossly unfair and bad behaviour... but do happens sometimes.

[babalu1997]

Tola18, on Jan 29 2009, 11:43 AM, said:

Yeah.
I have met yet another twist on that theme a couple of times.
Tournament. Opps ask to hurry, they must leave soon. So I try to rush: guess of the twoway finesse ok, play trump ace, everyone follows = trumps behaves - claim.
DIRECTOR!

Grossly unfair and bad behaviour... but do happens sometimes.

Yeah, i gave up on claiming long ago.

And the reason was, I was in 6nt, making, i claimed,

Rejected, i play a couple more tricks, claim again, with a line of play.

Rejected again.

Then the opps claimed, i did not read, they had claimed 4 tricks, so i was down 3.

Imagine my surprose when i get a bottom. now the director refuses to adjust, claiming that even if he adjusted I would not have been on top ten. But, some one made it to top ten with that bad result.

Now, I NEVER, NEVER CLAIM.

And i NEVER, NEVER, accept claims from opps.

Now, IF, IF THEY BEG, ABSOLUTELY BEG ME TO CLAIM, THEN I DO IT.

SIMPLE, EFFECTIVE.

As a bonus, the TD may devote his time to the hectic task of reciting poetry, playing utube videos and doing some interpretive dancing in the meantime. Errybody happy!!! Hakuna matata.

[jillybean]

Babalu and others, I understand your frustration but you know this is the sort of game you are likely to get when you signup for a free tournament. Minimise your chat screen, enjoy the LOOOOOOOOOVE MUSIC or dont play in those tourneys!

[TimG]

babalu1997, on Feb 1 2009, 10:38 AM, said:

Now, I NEVER, NEVER CLAIM.

And i NEVER, NEVER, accept claims from opps.

You are spoiling the game for others because of a bad experience you had. That's not nice.

[Old York]

Hi

I can understand everyone's frustration with this issue. The problems reported in this forum are frequently caused by failure to follow the rules of the game.

If a claim is rejected, stop play and simply call the director who should adjust the score.

If your director is incapable of adjusting then you are playing in the wrong tournaments.

Incompetent and rude directors are the bain of BBO. If this happens to you then report it to the Tournament Host, or e-mail their website etc.

Tony

[jmcw]

babalu1997, on Feb 1 2009, 10:38 AM, said:

Tola18, on Jan 29 2009, 11:43 AM, said:

Yeah.
I have met yet another twist on that theme a couple of times.
Tournament. Opps ask to hurry, they must leave soon. So I try to rush: guess of the twoway finesse ok, play trump ace, everyone follows = trumps behaves - claim.
DIRECTOR!

Grossly unfair and bad behaviour... but do happens sometimes.

Yeah, i gave up on claiming long ago.

And the reason was, I was in 6nt, making, i claimed,

Rejected, i play a couple more tricks, claim again, with a line of play.

Rejected again.

Then the opps claimed, i did not read, they had claimed 4 tricks, so i was down 3.

Imagine my surprose when i get a bottom. now the director refuses to adjust, claiming that even if he adjusted I would not have been on top ten. But, some one made it to top ten with that bad result.

Now, I NEVER, NEVER CLAIM.

And i NEVER, NEVER, accept claims from opps.

Now, IF, IF THEY BEG, ABSOLUTELY BEG ME TO CLAIM, THEN I DO IT.

SIMPLE, EFFECTIVE.

As a bonus, the TD may devote his time to the hectic task of reciting poetry, playing utube videos and doing some interpretive dancing in the meantime. Errybody happy!!! Hakuna matata.

Well now. Seems to me claims are an integral part of the game. A line should be stated at the time the claim is made. Having a bad experience (mistaken accept) does not alter that fact. Playing out obvious claims is a waste of time and boring.Even if it occasionally does little to speed things up it a least gives time to have a coffee, so what can be wrong with that

[hackenbush]

Old York, on Feb 2 2009, 09:16 AM, said:

If a claim is rejected, stop play and simply call the director who should adjust the score.

If your director is incapable of adjusting then you are playing in the wrong tournaments. 

This only applies to tournaments and perhaps not even to speedballs. You seriously risk losing a board if you always call director after rejected claim during boards 1 or 2. You don't have to play in tourneys that consistently have these problems, and in MBC you don't have to play against players who can't accept board-is-good valid claims. For egregious cases, I'll write on a note on these players and avoid them in the future.

[AceOfHeart]

Seldom claim unless all the tricks are tops or the opps are people I know. When you play with REAL experts/advanced/intermediates, they prob can count tricks. No such luck for most BBO "experts" thou.

[1eyedjack]

Despite all the anecdotes, I find that in online games the system works generally pretty well if you just claim, don't state a line, and then play on if they reject. If they reject too often without reason, then just mark them as enemies and move on.

Yes, I *KNOW* that the rules require that (1) you state a line of play and (2) play ceases at that point. Those rules were written before online play was invented, and I have a great deal of difficulty understanding why those rules are beneficial to the game in the online environment. No doubt someone can enlighten me when they read this post. And yes I *know* that someone has gone and written some laws dedictated for the online environment. They are just a joke.

If the claim is rejected you do not know who has rejected (unless it is a defensive claim, of course), and the rejecters get to play double-dummy. If you are forced to play the hand then all that you are doing effectively is to state your line of play by playing it. There is no way that you can gain advantage by doing so. Likewise, if the claim is flawed, the correct procedure (I understand) is that the director assigns an equitable result. Well, if you play out a flawed claim the equitable result will follow naturally.

There are numerous situations where the rules are bent or outright broken, with the tacit acceptance of all. This has to be about the most benign example.

Another example is the disallowing of undo. Again a benign departure from the laws.

A more malevalent example is the banning of psychic bids.

All of these departures are "fair" in that, provided everyone knows the laws to which they are playing at the time, it remains a level playing field, even if it is not Bridge as we know it.

So we live in a world, now, in which everyone and his dog thinks that he knows better than the legislators what is good for the game, and simply rewrites the laws to suit his own preferences. The only time you don't get away with it is if it is a sanctioned game under the authority of some zonal body.

But back to the OP, there is certainly an art to deciding when to claim, and against whom, and you can get it to work in your favour. Most especially if you are on the last hand of a round in a clocked tourney, you are on course for an average result and the clock is running out, it may be better to claim than score a certain ave- by playing it out. There is a chance that the opps will accept it (they also stand to lose out if the clock expires). And I do find that most of the time opps are fair and accept claims. There will always be exceptions.

Anyway, one of the things that irritates me (thread drift, sorry) is when the defenders tell me (declarer) to claim, when they can just as easily claim or concede for themselves if they are that confident of the layout.

[barmar]

Converts from other online bridge services may not realize that BBO allows defensive claims. OKbridge doesn't allow it, I don't know about the others. "claim pls" is common on OKbridge.