[Hanoi5]

Yesterday's first session of the pairs tournament was terrible. First table my opponents played 2 contracts making with an overtrick which my partner gave away. This time you'll sit at the opponent's chair to see if you can give me the same bad result:

♠AJT
♥Tx
♦Qx
♣KQT9xx

Everybody being Vulnerable, your partner opens the bidding with 1♥, RHO intervenes with 2♦, you bid 3♣, Pass to your left and your partner comes up with 3♠, your turn:

1♥   2♦    3♣   Pass
3♠   Pass ???

[jillybean]

4♥, what happened next?

[mtvesuvius]

4♠. I have no ♦ stopper, and I'd rather play a 4-3 or better than play a known 5-2. ♥ are more commomly known as crossruffing values .

ofc I just now realized that partner may only have 3♠... But I'll still give it a shot...

[jtfanclub]

mtvesuvius, on Jan 20 2009, 11:56 AM, said:

ofc I just now realized that partner may only have 3♠... But I'll still give it a shot...

Depends on who I'm playing with. With most of my regular partners, 3♠ denies a diamond stop, promises a spade stop, and so my call is 4♣. If my partner then calls 4♦ I will say 4♠. This is an extension of Eastern Cue.

But I believe the majority of people play Western Cue- a call of 3♦ would ask about the diamond stop, so 3♠ logically must ask about a spade stop, so I should bid 3NT here. Otherwise you have two calls to ask about diamonds and none about spades, and what's the point of that?

I'm not bidding 4 of either major, and if I'm wrong, well, I'll apologize later.

[oldman5757]

I don't know what is expert treatment here, but I play 3♦ by P would ask for a ♦ stopper, while 3♠ by P shows a ♠ stopper and asks for a ♦ stopper. Since I don't have one, I think I must bid 4♥. If P has only 5 (likely) he can judge whether to play there or bid 5♣ with a fit. It's true that a 4-3 ♠ fit could play better than 5-2 ♥ fit, but it's certainly possible that P has only 3.

[Hanoi5]

This is very interesting. How do you propose partner to bid with a 6-5? Doesn't 3♣ deny 4♠?

[jtfanclub]

Hanoi5, on Jan 20 2009, 12:58 PM, said:

This is very interesting. How do you propose partner to bid with a 6-5? Doesn't 3♣ deny 4♠?

For me, he bids 3♠ and then over 3NT/4♣ he bids 4♦.

Dunno how other people do it.

[ArtK78]

I guess I am missing something.

To me, 3♠ shows spades (I know, it is probably a highly unusual method, but that is what I play).

Since I don't have a real diamond stop, I am endplayed into bidding 4♥ - game in partner's known 5 cards (or longer) suit.

[mike777]

jillybean2, on Jan 20 2009, 11:49 AM, said:

4♥, what happened next?

ditto.

[mikeh]

I have to join jb and art in wondering wtp? Partner has shown both majors, with longer hearts... is that concept really so difficult to grasp?

All this nonsense about stoppers is just that... nonsense. The opps bid diamonds.. if partner needs a diamond stopper... he bids... (drumroll please) 3♦.. not that 3♦ is limited to asking for a stopper.. it is a generic force, but a common holding is one with which he will pass 3N.

If he holds a diamond stopper, and lacks primary club support and a rebiddable heart suit (or he has primary support but a notrumpy hand).. he bids.. another drum roll please... 3N!

So over 3♠, with our minimal hand and 3=2 in the majors we bid just like they show us in chapter 6 of a beginner's text... we give preference to 4♥.

Bridge is a difficult enough game when we make the normal bids.. start these weird stopper/no stopper arguments, in suits the opps haven't even implied, and we rapidly vanish down the rabbit-hole.

Oh... and to the poster who suggested that 3♣ denied spades... no it didn't. it denied a weak hand with spades... but an opening hand, or better, with 4 or more spades and longer clubs bids clubs first... just as if rho had passed the 1♥ opening bid.

[whereagles]

Like other, I have a feeling pard is a bit lacking on a diamond stopper, so I'll try a rebid of my clubs, which I feel are good enough for that purpose.

[Hanoi5]

You're greeted by the following dummy after a ♦A lead:

♠AJT
♥Tx
♦Qx
♣KQT9xx

♠Q6xxx
♥AKJ9xx
♦x
♣x

Next comes a small ♦ to the King, you?

This pair ended up fighting over getting to 4♠ instead of 4♥, 4♠ goes down and 4♥ was made.

[mtvesuvius]

Hanoi5, on Jan 20 2009, 05:50 PM, said:

4♠ goes down and 4♥ was made.

!

[jtfanclub]

mikeh, on Jan 20 2009, 05:23 PM, said:

I have to join jb and art in wondering wtp? Partner has shown both majors, with longer hearts... is that concept really so difficult to grasp?

OK, so assume that's what he has. Why in the world would you bid 4♥? Are you afraid that if you bid 4♣, that partner's going to pass?

You have no idea how strong partner's majors are. If he has 6 hearts to the ten and 5 spades to the KQ, you need to play in spades and ruff a heart high. If he has 6 hearts to the AK and 5 spades to the 8, you need to play in hearts. And while I'm using extremes here, I can name all sorts of busted 6 card suits and semi-solid 5 card suits where you would want to play in the 5-3.

There's no reason why you should want to take a preference here. Luckily you have lots of space to show no preference.

[ArtK78]

jtfanclub, on Jan 20 2009, 11:47 PM, said:

mikeh, on Jan 20 2009, 05:23 PM, said:

I have to join jb and art in wondering wtp? Partner has shown both majors, with longer hearts... is that concept really so difficult to grasp?

OK, so assume that's what he has. Why in the world would you bid 4♥? Are you afraid that if you bid 4♣, that partner's going to pass?

You have no idea how strong partner's majors are. If he has 6 hearts to the ten and 5 spades to the KQ, you need to play in spades and ruff a heart high. If he has 6 hearts to the AK and 5 spades to the 8, you need to play in hearts. And while I'm using extremes here, I can name all sorts of busted 6 card suits and semi-solid 5 card suits where you would want to play in the 5-3.

There's no reason why you should want to take a preference here. Luckily you have lots of space to show no preference.

4♣ doesn't show no preference - it shows an aversion to playing in the majors or in 3NT. In other words: I have clubs and nothing else!

In actual fact, you have major suit cards. So, take a preference to partner's known 5 card major and play in the 5-2 fit rather than the 4-3 fit. The fact that partner is 6-5 rather than 5-4 is a pleasant surprise, but it matters not.

As for playing in 4♠ rather than 4♥ when your combined spade holding is solid and you are missing the ♥Q, congratulations! Your bidding is so precise that you can diagnose that situation and get to 4♠. The 6-2 fit is likely to play better than the 5-3 fit in most other cases (you can withstand a force better, you can withstand a 4-1 trump break better, etc.). And, even when you do manage to find the magical 5-3 fit when the 6-2 fit is missing the Q, you may not be any better off.

[skjaeran]

As Mike and others, I don't understand why some make bidding this hand so hard.

All bids are natural, and over 3♠ it's very normal to give preference to 4♥. For those bidding 4♠: It's normally better to play on a 5-2 fit when it's probable that the long hand will have to take ruff(s), you're less inclined to run out of trumps that way.

[Codo]

I am a 4 ♠ bidder.
With clubs and spades, I had doubled 2 ♦. Maybe not with a slam searching swan, but with most normal hands.

So to me, 3 Spade shows a 6-5 and I want to play in the 5-3 fit. Did not make because of the 4-1 break and a great defence? (Diamond, club diamond?)
Else I had thought, that 4 Spade should make quite easily.

[JLOL]

ArtK78, on Jan 21 2009, 12:32 PM, said:

The 6-2 fit is likely to play better than the 5-3 fit in most other cases (you can withstand a force better, you can withstand a 4-1 trump break better, etc

LOL

[JLOL]

JT, one problem with your argument is you probably can't get to 4S when partner is 56 in the majors after you bid 4C anyways. Doing so would imply that partner will bid 4S over 4C with 56, but he can't really do that since he doesn't know you prefer spades to hearts yet (for instance you might be 2227, then 4S will be silly).

Maybe you had the idea of some kind of choice of games 4D cue over 4C though, but that would be non standard (but might well be a good agreement).

While you certainly want to play in spades opposite a 56 hand it is pretty hard to get there. If you raise to 4S over 3S, you risk playing a silly contract when partner is 46, and probably the wrong contract if hes 45.

Whether or not partner should bid 3S with 46 is debatable, but if he bids 3H then you probably won't bid 3S with 4036 and a diamond stopper (3S may endplay partner into not bidding 3N), and might not with 4126 and a diamond stopper. You shouldn't make a negative double with these shapes either since later bidding clubs would not be forcing, so you may not be able to show your 6 card suit if you do that.

Again the best idea to me seems like a choice of games 4D cue over 3S, which will get you to the right spot (partner can easily bid 4S with 56 now, and easily bid 4H with 46, and decide what to do with 45), but again this would be non standard (but probably a good agreement).

Basically my point is that this situation is not as easy as you make it out to be to get to the right spot, and 4H will never get you to a ridiculous spot so that is probably why people are bidding it.