[TylerE]

Other:

12-14 if playing a standardish 5CM system
10-12 playing strong club at favorable or equal (inc. r/r) 1st-3rd
12+-15 playing strong club at unfavorable and in 4th

[JanM]

FrancesHinden, on Jan 19 2009, 06:05 AM, said:

The indirect effects (what happens in competition etc) I believe generally favour strong NT, but this is very difficult to prove one way or the other.

I found that an interesting comment, because my impression is the opposite - the main advantage I think I gain from playing a weak(ish) NT (12-14, sliding about half a point depending on vul) is on the hands where I don't open 1NT. And it's those hands that make it hard for me to adjust to playing a strong NT - my instincts are all wrong when one of us opens 1 of a minor and there's competition. So perhaps both Frances and I are thinking about what happens for us when playing an unfamiliar range. The competitive auctions become less comfortable for each of us without the experience we have from having played a lot of hands using our preferred NT range.

[whereagles]

Gerben42, on Jan 19 2009, 03:55 PM, said:

But with these ranges you lose TWO minor suit openings. I very much prefer 2+♣ 4+♦ and that's not possible with 9-11 NT or the like.

I don't lose anything. What I give up, I had already given up: ability to support a minor with 4 cards.

[hotShot]

JanM, on Jan 19 2009, 07:29 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Jan 19 2009, 06:05 AM, said:

The indirect effects (what happens in competition etc) I believe generally favour strong NT, but this is very difficult to prove one way or the other.

I found that an interesting comment, because my impression is the opposite - the main advantage I think I gain from playing a weak(ish) NT (12-14, sliding about half a point depending on vul) is on the hands where I don't open 1NT. And it's those hands that make it hard for me to adjust to playing a strong NT - my instincts are all wrong when one of us opens 1 of a minor and there's competition. So perhaps both Frances and I are thinking about what happens for us when playing an unfamiliar range. The competitive auctions become less comfortable for each of us without the experience we have from having played a lot of hands using our preferred NT range.

Could it be that Frances is playing in an environment that is dominated by weak NT, while you are playing in a strong NT environment?

I suspect that any significant advantage is more likely to be caused by opps that are unfamiliar with your methods (here NT range), than any technical merit.

[mtvesuvius]

hotShot, on Jan 19 2009, 01:25 PM, said:

JanM, on Jan 19 2009, 07:29 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Jan 19 2009, 06:05 AM, said:

The indirect effects (what happens in competition etc) I believe generally favour strong NT, but this is very difficult to prove one way or the other.

I found that an interesting comment, because my impression is the opposite - the main advantage I think I gain from playing a weak(ish) NT (12-14, sliding about half a point depending on vul) is on the hands where I don't open 1NT. And it's those hands that make it hard for me to adjust to playing a strong NT - my instincts are all wrong when one of us opens 1 of a minor and there's competition. So perhaps both Frances and I are thinking about what happens for us when playing an unfamiliar range. The competitive auctions become less comfortable for each of us without the experience we have from having played a lot of hands using our preferred NT range.

Could it be that Frances is playing in an environment that is dominated by weak NT, while you are playing in a strong NT environment?

I suspect that any significant advantage is more likely to be caused by opps that are unfamiliar with your methods (here NT range), than any technical merit.

That is very true. In the US, Strong NT is extremely common, however in most other parts of the world, weak NT is widespread.

[orlam]

whereagles, on Jan 19 2009, 07:48 AM, said:

JLOL, on Jan 19 2009, 02:33 AM, said:

I like 10 to 12 NV but it usually creates a system hole (since it makes the other ranges too wide).

You can "fix" that by playing a preparatory club/diamond.

1♣ 1x
1NT = 13-14

1♦ 1x
1NT = 15-17

This allows even a 1NT lowering to 9-11.

Lol.

[JanM]

hotShot, on Jan 19 2009, 01:25 PM, said:

JanM, on Jan 19 2009, 07:29 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Jan 19 2009, 06:05 AM, said:

The indirect effects (what happens in competition etc) I believe generally favour strong NT, but this is very difficult to prove one way or the other.

I found that an interesting comment, because my impression is the opposite - the main advantage I think I gain from playing a weak(ish) NT (12-14, sliding about half a point depending on vul) is on the hands where I don't open 1NT. And it's those hands that make it hard for me to adjust to playing a strong NT - my instincts are all wrong when one of us opens 1 of a minor and there's competition. So perhaps both Frances and I are thinking about what happens for us when playing an unfamiliar range. The competitive auctions become less comfortable for each of us without the experience we have from having played a lot of hands using our preferred NT range.

Could it be that Frances is playing in an environment that is dominated by weak NT, while you are playing in a strong NT environment?

I suspect that any significant advantage is more likely to be caused by opps that are unfamiliar with your methods (here NT range), than any technical merit.

That's true about hands where we open 1NT - then what the opponents are familiar with is important. But on the hands where we don't open 1NT, I think it's our familiarity with the sorts of hands partner will have and how different bids will work out (in competitive situations) that's more important. So I don't think that the fact that I play in a strong NT dominated culture and Frances in one where weak NT is more common is what influences our opinions about the hands where we don't open 1NT.

[mr1303]

In the UK, where "everyone" plays Acol, I prefer strong NT.

Online, where "everyone" plays some version of standard American, I prefer weak NT.

Maybe I just like being different.

[helene_t]

Lol Mark, me too.

[benlessard]

It mostly depend on the kind of stayman I play. Playing regular stayman i prefer a 3 pts range and even think that 3pts is slightly too wide. 12-14 NV & 15-17 vul are probably what i would like to play. Playing 2 way stayman ill play 11-14 with no hesitation.


The setup i prefer is that

1Nt------2C-
2D---- 2M is 4M invite (partner can pass with 3 and a minimum)

1Nt------2D (all other inv wich allow to stop in 2M when responder is inv with the long M)

A setup like this is excellent for INV hand but bad for slammish hands or hand where 5m is better than 3Nt.

With a setup like this the best ranges are 10-14 NV and 12-15 or 12-16 VUL. The problem we cause to the opps partially compensate for some missed game or when we going overboard (more rare then you think) , but the real gain come from having an extra rebid that allow opener to transfer in his 2nd suit allowing opener to make 3 natural bids instead of offshapes jumpshifts. Also to be able to stop in 1Nt with 19 facing 0-5 in a strong club setup is fun too.

[JLOL]

Jan, I don't get it...I think Frances has probably played a lot of weak NT so it is not because she is unfamiliar with it that she finds competitive auctions more difficult. Maybe I'm wrong and just assume she has played a lot of weak NT because she is English, I am totally making an assumption so maybe you know she's played strong NT her whole life and I don't

Anyways, I am probably equally familiar with them (I played almost only weak NT when I started, then variable, and now mostly strong), and I agree that in competitive auctions when I don't open 1N I prefer to play a strong NT system, but I also agree it's pretty close. Sometimes you win playing weak NT because responder can bid more easily knowing partner has an unbalanced hand or extras, but often opener has some awkward problems because a strong NT hand type is not always comfortable just passing on his second bid like a weak NT hand type would be.

A prototypical auction that's very difficult for weak NTers is 1D (2S) p p. If opener is passing it out with his flat 16 he might well be missing something. Partner could have a flat 9 that he couldn't make a negative double with (3235 or whatever), or partner could have a shapely hand with not so many high cards that he is not comfortable bidding with that makes a partscore or game opposite the right strong NT but gets way too high opposite a misfitting unbalanced hand type.

Also some auctions are difficult when you are unbalanced and the opponents bid your second best suit, and you are forced to bid something on the second round. For instance an easy auction like 1C 2H 2S p ? If 2N shows a strong NT here, then you have to bid something with a 1435 12 count which is pretty ugly.

Also the concept of 1m p 1M p 2M showing "a strong NT or an unbalanced hand" can be a nice benefit, but it is simply not true that all unbalanced openers with a fit are the equivalent in playing strength to a strong NT so you end up having a range that is effectively too wide. You can play a style where you open a little sounder with a minor and an unbalanced hand to alleviate that, but I think that the fix is bigger than the problem then. The other thing is, if you ever like raising with 3 card support and a singleton, you are really overbidding if you play a weak NT system. Certainly a 1345 12 count is not worth 15 and 4 trumps balanced, but opening 1m(your choice) and rebidding 2C is a loss in my opinion.

Also, speaking of that 1435 12 count, if you are like me then you like having the option of rebidding 1N with that after 1C p 1S p ? This is not an option playing weak NT. Of course you do get to rebid 1N with 15/16 now, but the weaker hand type is much much more frequent, and with 17 you could probably reverse anyways.

etc etc. But like I said, it is often easier as responder when you're playing a weak NT system, but imo competitive auctions are better playing a strong NT system.

[gwnn]

I read a weak NT system ('Roadmap'?) where they reserved 1♣-1M, 2♦ and something else for 1♦ which I forgot to show a strong NT with 4 card fit which was very useful. With both minors and a good hand they had to rebid 2NT though.. So they had to open 2NT with 18-20... So they had to open 2♣ with the randomest 21 counts... So the fixes were quite costly. I wonder if they could have done something to this end to make a little better.

[JLOL]

Tcyk, on Jan 19 2009, 06:34 AM, said:

I ran an extensive study of NT ranges using BRidgeBRowser. It seems that the weaker the range the better the results.

Do you think you can make any meaningful conclusions from this? I would guess that a much higher %age of pickup partnerships play strong NT than the %age of regular partnerships that play strong NT which means that the weak NT pairs in your database are much more likely to be a regular partnership than a strong NT pair. This alone gives them a big edge since they will have agreements, and will be more likely to be experts.

Not only that but I think that weak NT is very hard for people without agreements to defend against, since there is a higher chance that it is their hand for game and they are effectively preempted. Not just that, but if you don't know whats forcing, what subsequent doubles mean, how to get to 44 fits, how many HCP your partner is showing, etc, then it is a MUCH more effective preempt than even a weak 2 where people know how to play takeout doubles and what bids mean and such. Can you imagine how good weak 2s would be against most people if they had the same lack of knowledge and understanding and experience that they did over weak NT in general?

This lack of knowledge as to how to find fits and bid game when the opps open a weak NT applies also when the opps open a STRONG NT, but the difference is it doesn't matter nearly as often now.

[JanM]

You make some good points, Justin. I think my feeling that the competitive hands work out better in a weak NT based system is just that I more often see problems caused by 1m openers that can be either quite good shaped hands with a real suit or a weak NT than I do ones caused by 1m openers with either a real suit or extra strength. But maybe it's just that I've played this style for a long time so it feels more comfortable to me.

There are going to be awkward hands playing any system, and particularly after the opponents make a weak jump overcall (especially 2♠ of course ). But it seems to me that I see hands where it goes 1m-2♠ and I look at the responding hand and think "3m, wtp" and then I realize that for this particular responder, partner might have a 4333 12 count, so the raise might get them to a very silly contract. OTOH, if it goes 1m-2♠-P-P to me and I have a 4333 16 count, I might get a poor result by passing, but it won't be a disaster - if we could make a partscore higher than 2♠ maybe we'll beat them. And if we can't beat them, maybe our teammates bid 2♠ over 1NT at the other table and got to play it there. The worst thing that's going to happen is that we'll end up defending a making partscore when we had a making partscore and our teammates couldn't bid over 1NT and the opponents got to the partscore that makes - I know, that's 7 IMPs, but on balance I think the losses because responder can't compete with moderate support for the opened minor are worse. Rarely, we can make a game and responder can't bid, but usually if we can make game, responder will be able to do something (of course your 3235 9 count after 1♦-2♠ is an exception, although sometimes I might raise diamonds with that). Maybe I'm wrong. It's a long time since I've played a strong NT system for more than a very few sessions (and those were matchpoints).

And it is clearly true that to get full benefit from taking the weak NT hands out of our opening minor suit bids, we have to add a lot of agreements. For instance, we solve the unbalanced minimum with 3 card support by playing transfer responses to 1♣ and transfer rebids after 1♦-1M. That allows us to find out which hand opener has below 2M (out of comp). Still, we used to raise 1m-1M with both 3 and 4 in unbalanced hands, as well as with the 15-17 4 card support hands, and didn't have a lot of problems. But my opening bids may be a little sounder than yours, and maybe even more so when I didn't have as many gadgets available.

[skjaeran]

I'm used to (14)15-17, and is very comfortable with that. I'm not at all comfortable with 12-14. Some 20+ years ago I tried out 7-12 NV (always some 4432) at MP with great success. In addition it was great fun! You're not allowed to play that anymore.

[Free]

14+-17 in a standard system, otherwise 11+-14 if it fits the system (like strong ♣, fantunes,...)

[Trinidad]

I grew up in an environment where only strong NT existed. So, I don't have much experience with weak NT's, but I have been thinking of starting to play it because it may fit the rest of the system well.

The issue that I cannot solve and that I think every weak NT player has a problem with is what to do with a strong NT hand when partner responds 1NT.

You could have:
♠AQ
♥KJTx
♦QTxx
♣AJx

You open 1♦ and partner responds 1NT. What do you bid now?

If partner has 6 HCP, the strong NT field will open 1NT and play it there. If partner has 9 HCP, the strong NT will open 1NT and play in 3NT, which is likely to make. Should one bid 2NT and play a level higher than the field opposite a 6 count (in a wrong sided contract)? Or should one pass and miss game opposite partner's maximum (where the odds of wrongsiding are less since the strength difference between the hands is smaller)?

What do weak NT ers do to solve this?

Rik

[mtvesuvius]

Trinidad, on Jan 22 2009, 01:16 PM, said:

What do weak NT ers do to solve this?

We do the right thing ofc!

This is a relatively rare situation and I think the gains outweigh the losses...
Normally I would bid 2NT with your given hand. If it's wrongsided, then we may already have a bad board. I want to stay with the field as much as possible here...

[helene_t]

Trinidad, on Jan 22 2009, 07:16 PM, said:

The issue that I cannot solve and that I think every weak NT player has a problem with is what to do with a strong NT hand when partner responds 1NT.

Yes, you would like to limit the 1NT response to 8 points so opener can pass with 16. But it is nasty to respond 2♣ with 9 points as you also have to cater for opener having a 4441 12-count. I think Frances has worked it out.

[oldman5757]

A 14-16 NT works very well in Precision, so that 1♦ - 1M - 1NT is limited to 13 hcp. Likewise, 1♣ - 1♦ - 1NT shows 17-18 HCP.

IMHO, weak NT's are much better at IMPs than at MPs. The reason is that the weak NT tends to bury 4-4 major fits. Not a big deal at IMPs but can be very costly at MPs.

I actually think the best reason to play weak NT's is that they're so much fun to play!