[Free]

I've read a lot about reversing the 2♦ and 2♥ responses over a 1♠ opener. Playing 2/1GF, an invitational hand with 5♥ opposite a 1♠ opening can be a huge problem! 1♠-1NT-2m-? What are you supposed to do? And if you're playing Gazzilli it's even worse, since you have to respond 2♦ and opener will bid 2♠ with less than 16HCP. So it's definitely useful to play the following:
1♠-2♦ = 10+HCP, 5+♥
1♠-2♥ = GF, 5+♦ (or even 6+♦ if you're playing 1♠-2♣ as a relay)

While the (dis)advantages are explained everywhere, there's nobody who can give a good structure on how to continue the auction. What's forcing, what's not. What's opener supposed to do? How can responder show he has a real GF hand with ♥? Etc.

So I was wondering if someone here has a good structure (with lots of continuations please) for auctions 1♠-2♦ (10+HCP with 5+♥) and 1♠-2♥ (GF with 6+♦).

[rory74]

Have a look at Ambra.

[Gerben42]

Quote

While the (dis)advantages are explained everywhere,

Where?

[realnumpty]

You will find Ambra write up at:

http://www.geocities...000/sys/?200830

[gwnn]

this looks like a structure i would be very uncomfortable with... for example if I hold 6 hearts and a decent 10 count i would love to be in game opposite any minimum with 4 cards but not with 2.

[Free]

Gerben42, on Jan 18 2009, 12:59 PM, said:

Quote

While the (dis)advantages are explained everywhere,

Where?

IMP magazine, several blogs (like DavidC's),...

[Gerben42]

Will I find it in the current IMP, which I got on Saturday but haven't read yet?

[awm]

Here's a fairly simple structure I've been looking at. I think this covers slightly different hand types than you're suggesting though. My general approach was to respond 2♣ (GF relay) with all game forcing semi-balanced hands, game forcing hands with clubs (sometimes break relays early on these), and 4441/5431-type GF hands with singleton spade. A semi-forcing 1NT response handles less-than-game force hands with roughly the same types (along with 1♠-3♣ invitational). So the other two-level bids mostly handle invitational or better hands with 6-card suits or 5-5 in two suits (although I've lumped weak hands with long hearts into the 2♦ bid).

1♠-2♦ = 6+♥ any strength, or 5♥-5+m invitational-plus, or 5♥-3+♠ GF
.... 2♥ = usual call, no game opposite weak hand with 6+♥
.... 2♠ = GF; generally something like 18+ hcp not 5-5, no 4♥, not a super spade suit
.... 2N = GF with 5+♣
.... 3♣ = GF with 5+♦
.... 3♦ = sets hearts as trump, extras normally with 4+♥, GF
.... 3♥ = not a lot extra but a bunch of hearts, potentially passable by weak hand
.... 3♠ = GF with very strong spades, sets trumps, asks cuebids
.... 3NT = GF with 0-1♥, good spades, kind of like 1♠-1NT-3NT
.... 4m = splinter for hearts

1♠-2♦-2♥:
.... Pass = weak hand with long hearts
.... 2♠ = artificial, showing a shapely invite hand
........ 2nt asks, and then 3m shows 5-5 invite (NF), 3♥ shows 6+♥ invite
.... 2nt = GF with 5+♥/5+♣ (3♣, 3♥ set suit, 3♦ a punt, 3♠ shows 6-7♠)
.... 3♣ = GF with 5+♥/5+♦ (3♦, 3♥ set suit, 3♠ shows long spades)
.... 3♦ = GF 6+♥ but not great suit (3♥ sets hearts, 3♠ extra spades, 3n to play)
.... 3♥ = GF with a very strong heart suit, sets trumps (cuebids)
.... 3♠ = "picture bid" with 3+♠ and strong hearts

1♠-2♦-2♠:
.... 2nt, 3♣ = transfer to minor with 5-5 hand (as above)
.... 3♦ = transfer to hearts, shows good hand with 6+♥
.... 3♥ = fairly weak with hearts, better to distinguish strength over suit quality here
.... 3♠ = 3+♠ and good hearts

1♠-2♦-2nt/3♣
.... accept transfer sets suit (at least 5-3 fit)
.... 3♥ shows 6+♥
.... 3♠ shows a real fit
.... 3nt shows the misfitting 5-5 hand, hopefully we have enough extras to make something

1♠-2♥ = invitational or better with 5+♦/5+♣, or with 6+♦, or GF with 5+♦-3♠
.... 2♠ = usual bid, something like 11-14 hcp, not an obvious GF opposite invite
.... 2nt = 15+ hcp, not extremely unusual shape, GF (natural continuations)
.... 3♣, 3♥ = 5+/5+ GF values
.... 3♠ = sets trumps
.... 3♦ = big diamond fit (4+♦) and not a terrible minimum, GF but maybe light

1♠-2♥-2♠
.... 2nt = 5+♣
........ 3♣/3♦ is NF preference
........ 3♥ is 4th suit GF, indicating a maximum 2♠ and nice fit for one/both minors
........ 3♠ is NF, showing a long and reasonably good spade suit (bid game with 2155 tho)
........ 3nt is to play
........ 4♣ shows a great club fit, upgrading hand to GF but don't want to play 3nt
.... 3♣ = game force with 6+♦ (3♦ sets diams, others natural, 3♥ normally 5-5)
.... 3♦ = invite only with 6+♦ (often passed, but opener can bid on with the right hand)
.... 3♥ = 4♥-6♦ game force, normally pretty pure with values in suits
.... 3♠ = 5+♦-3♠ "picture" GF

[paulg]

As I've probably written somewhere, I really struggled with this concept and two hours in the BBO Partnership Bidding put us off it for good.

The gain of handling the invitational heart hands was more than offset by the problems it seemed to create - in particular it seemed far more difficult to establish our combined values with 'normal' 2/1 responding hands.

So, whatever you decide, I recommend lots of time in the Partnership Bidding area.

Paul

[david_c]

I've played around with this a fair amount; a few thoughts:

1. For 1♠:2♦ -

Obviously the extra step is helpful, but people have different ideas about what it's helpful for. In particular, you could use the extra space to allow you to stop in 2M when both hands are minimum. Thus:

1♠:2♦,2♥ = most minimums
... pass = good hearts but dead minimum
... 2♠ = mild invite, typically a doubleton spade, NF
... 2NT = invite, typically a singleton spade, NF
... 3♥ = natural invite

1♠:2♦,2♠ = minimum with 6+ spades, NF

This allows you to bid those difficult hands with 5/6 hearts and 9-11 points better than any standard system.

On the other hand, if you go down this route then your bidding on game-forcing hands is scarcely any better than SAYC or Acol. (With a single-suited game force you may need to invent a 3m bid.) In fact the reason I didn't list continuations on my blog is that they are exactly the same as a natural "light 2/1" system.

(Actually I had 1♠:2♦,2♥:3♠! showing a game-forcing single-suiter in hearts; hands with spade support would make a different response to 1♠.)

Alternatively, there are systems like Adam's above where 1♠:2♦,2♥:2♠ and/or 1♠:2♦,2♠ are artificial. Compared to my first approach, this gives you much better bidding of game-forcing hands (likely to be better than standard 2/1), while still being able to add a few invitational hands to 2♦.

Personally I've moved from the second approach to the first, because of the frequency of hands which would like to bid 1♠:2♦,2♥:2♠ non-forcing.


2. For 1♠:2♥ -

I've never been able to work out a system I'm really happy with. But it has always struck me that it's opener who is affected by the loss of a step, not responder. So removing hands from 2♥ (for example making it promise 6 diamonds) doesn't really seem to help all that much.

[awm]

I think the main difference in davidc's approach is that he is trying to handle the (semi)-balanced invites with 5♥ whereas I am trying to include the 6+♥ weak hands but exclude (semi)-balanced shapes.

My approach would be to bid a semi-forcing notrump on the semi-balanced hands, figuring that:

(1) If opener passes, we might miss an eight-card heart fit but not a nine card one, and we are highly unlikely to miss a game. Playing 1nt might be better than playing 3♥ on these hands.

(2) If opener bids (which he usually will) then 2♥ by responder clearly shows only five because with 6+♥ he would've started 2♦ regardless of strength. So we're in a fairly good situation here.

Removing the 5♥ semi-balanced invite hands from 2♦ means that I don't need to use sequences like 1♠-2♦-2♥-2♠/2NT as natural non-forcing calls. It also means that opener can accept the transfer easily with a singleton heart, since it is still likely that 2♥ is a great partial opposite six.

Of course, the original post by Free did suggest including the hands davidc is worried about.

[Free]

david_c, on Jan 20 2009, 05:56 PM, said:

~snip~
2. For 1♠:2♥ -

I've never been able to work out a system I'm really happy with. But it has always struck me that it's opener who is affected by the loss of a step, not responder. So removing hands from 2♥ (for example making it promise 6 diamonds) doesn't really seem to help all that much.

Can't opener ask responder's shape in this case, especially if it shows 6+♦? I mean ok, opener can't show his hand accurately, but what if you use 1♠-2♥-2♠ as a relay? Since responder's hand is better described, it may work. And opener can still use other bids to show 5-5 distributions for example.

[Free]

realnumpty, on Jan 18 2009, 02:13 PM, said:

You will find Ambra write up at:

http://www.geocities...000/sys/?200830

Tnx for this structure. However there's something that strikes me: they don't have a bid for hands with short ♥ and 14-15HCP... Or did I miss something?

[marcD]

For whatever it's worth I have been playing an ambra based approach for the last 3 years and here are the trade off I chose
- I use 2♣ with club invitational hands or any GF hand which wants to relay
- 2♦ shows hearts. Only 2♠ by opener is NF (misfit, minimum) , 2♥ is a waiting bid either mini or 18+ , all other bids show 15-17. over 2♥ responder shows a GF hand with 2♠ , 2NT 3♣ 3♦ 3♥ are inv
- We bvid 2♥ with good diamonds (generally 6+), forcing to 3♦. opener shows minimu with 2♠ or 15+ with 2NT. 3♣ by responder then shws 4 hearts

hope this helps

[MesSer]

I tried putting together a structure for this convention based on a strong club system where openings are 11-16 (10-16). What strikes me thought is that you rarely gain anything from it in that situation. Might be different for a natural system where opener is pretty unlimited in opening strength and responder hence must be really wide range. Our convention was based on the fact that we were to play it in MP and we spent a lot of time in partnership bidding room to find out wether it was decent or not...

The first thing you have to consider is what type of hands you'd like your convention to handle, is it reaching game when we have fit instead of ending in 1NT or is it to find a good partial instead of 1NT when we have a potential H/S fit or semi-fit?

Playing with limited opening we came to the conclusion that there are two situations where you'd gain playing this convention.

a) When you have a long heart suit and opener is min with semi-fit. (End in 2H/2S instead of 1NT)

When opener intended to pass on 1NT with 3card hearts and 12-14hp and you have decent hand with 9-11hp.

Every hand with 4card hearts could actually be removed from the opening hand since he'd almost always rebid these with 2H over your 1NT... Every hand with 15-16 would find another bid over your 1NT-call.

In Case A you could end up in 2H on 5-1 when you have a 5-2 spade fit, or, if you design a system that would allow a non-forcing 2S bid to be made (if you have only 5), you could end up in 3H on 5-3 and 5-2 in spades instead of 2H on 5-3. Or, you could end up in 3H where others would play 1NT.

In some rare ocassions we found that you actually lost leverage to those playing natural where bidding would start 1S-1N-2m-2H-3H since here you could make accurate judging based on your minor suit holding whereas with transfer you have to guess wether it is right to bid game or not.

This leaves us with case B where some 14pointers actually would be bid again thus finding the fit eventually (with more info given to partner). The rest of the 12-14 hands are the hard case and probably open for discussion wether the system works out fine or not...

The most important thing about these hands though, is that in MANY cases these hands are purely judgment calls are my 9 good against his 14etc. Here information about the different hand's distributions are more important than anything else and more importantly -- where in the suits is his strength?

We tried a few different approaches to invites in these sequences, however, there is limited space. After a while we decided that it was easier to just find the major suit on most hands and differntiate between misfit/regular raise/good raise/super raise and then make a judgment call which might or might not be correct... OR to just play natural and be in the same situation as any other pair and trust to our superior skills (or opponents stupidity) to give us the advantage

In the end we decided to put the project on ice until later and just keep the bidding alive with our 14-16hp hands and any hand with 5S and 4H regardless of strength...

There are so many risks and very few gains, at least with showing this hand type against an 11-16 hand. The targeted hands where the convention is supposed to win against a normal approach are very few and rare and usually requires more than just fit in one suit or turns out to be based on judgment/bidding style anyway.

If you decide to try it out, make sure you spend A LOT of time trying the convention out to see it's strength and flaws and make sure that you from the beginnning decide on what it is you want the convention to do for you!