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Any recourse?

#21 User is offline   MFA 

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Posted 2008-December-16, 16:21

shintaro, on Dec 16 2008, 12:16 PM, said:

;)

So frequencies are posted therefore No problem YOU stay and check that YOUR scores are correct ; that is what the set time period for checking is all about.

If you dont check or cannot be bothered staying to check; then you get what you deserve surely.

With Bridgemates you have 2 chances the first being when the score is entered and then passed to East for checking, which is when wrong Input SHOULD be found;  If you press OK by mistake you have the TD who can then Change the score for you or cancel the Score so that it can be input correctly;

Lastly you can Check the Frequencies

To me it is a no brainer

:)

Did you miss the point that the 4th placed pair DID check their own score (which was correct) but the third placed pair DIDN'T (and they had too many points due to the bridgemate mistake)?

It could very hard for a pair to spot another pair's mistake.

I was not part of this incident, but I have some influence on the conditions of contest for these tournaments, so all comments are appreciated.
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#22 User is offline   MFA 

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Posted 2008-December-16, 16:31

JoAnneM, on Dec 16 2008, 04:37 PM, said:

Even when the daily bulletins are printed at NABC's there is the disclaimer that the scores posted are not final, due to possible errors.  It just seems incredible to me that an incorrect score would be allowed to stand, no matter when it was discovered.  And I can't imagine a DIC wanting to run a tournament that issued points based on incorrect scoring.

Our problem is that medals are being awarded 30min after the play has finished, and everybody would leave the playing area shortly after to return home. It's Sunday afternoon.

One has to decide, if medals should be recollected and redistributed. And the same goes for the price money (not a very large sum, though). If so, how long time after the event could this be done, if the mistake remains unfound for a while?

Masterpoints are the smallest issue. These are registered electronically and can easily be changed. Also, the players are not playing the event for the sake of those points.
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#23 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2008-December-16, 16:31

I had a VERY similar situation albeit at a club game where a "C" declarer revoked against a "B" pair and I was called after the cards had been mixed and the next hand was underway.

The C pair could not confirm the facts and would not due to the loud and obnoxious DIRECTOR call. I had a retired National Director playing who told me that I could not correct the score without such agreement unless the hand record clearly showed that the contract could not have been made without a revoke.

I have no doubt the revoke happened but they made 4 spades doubled and deep finesse made 5! I also have no sympathy.

Despite the formal corrections period etc. at a higher level, confirmation of the facts from both pairs seems necessary.
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#24 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2008-December-16, 23:31

ggwhiz, on Dec 16 2008, 06:31 PM, said:

I had a VERY similar situation albeit at a club game where a "C" declarer revoked against a "B" pair and I was called after the cards had been mixed and the next hand was underway.

The C pair could not confirm the facts and would not due to the loud and obnoxious DIRECTOR call.  I had a retired National Director playing who told me that I could not correct the score without such agreement unless the hand record clearly showed that the contract could not have been made without a revoke.

I have no doubt the revoke happened but they made 4 spades doubled and deep finesse made 5!  I also have no sympathy.

Despite the formal corrections period etc. at a higher level, confirmation of the facts from both pairs seems necessary.

The question of obnoxious director calls is separate from the question of ruling on the reason for the call. Players should cooperate with the TD's investigation of the facts, even when the opponents are obnoxious.

The director is required to rectify any irregularity of which he becomes aware before the correction period expires. There is, however, no rectification for a revoke to which attention is not drawn after a member of the NOS calls on the following board, If "the next hand was underway" means this criterion was met, there is no rectification (but see Law 64C regarding equity).

The current laws do not support the retired national director's opinion. I have no idea if the laws in force at the time did.

As to confirmation of the facts, see laws 84 and 85. These laws apply at all levels of the game.

In the particular example case, if you as the TD had no doubt the revoke happened, and if you as the TD believe that equity to the NOS required a score adjustment, and if the situation was brought to your attention before the end of the correction period, then you should have adjusted the score (Law 64C) even if Law 64B4 says that no rectification should be made, and even if somebody (no matter who) opines otherwise*. Again, that's the current law. Note that the attitude of the NOS is not a consideration in determining equity.

*David Stevenson recently told a tale (on rgb, I think) about a ruling involving Edgar Kaplan, who was a player in the case. Kaplan told the table TD that his (the TD's) interpretation of the law was wrong. Kaplan knew this, of course, because he wrote it. The table TD referred the case to the DIC (one Bill Schoder, aka Kojak). Kojak told Kaplan that he, Kojak, was the DIC, not Kaplan, and that the DIC's opinion would prevail. Which it did, Kojak agreeing with the table TD's interpretation. Later, Kaplan (and the WBFLC) changed the law, but that didn't matter to the table ruling at the time. :P
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#25 User is offline   shintaro 

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Posted 2008-December-17, 03:00

:) MFA Quote

Did you miss the point that the 4th placed pair DID check their own score (which was correct) but the third placed pair DIDN'T (and they had too many points due to the bridgemate mistake)?

It could very hard for a pair to spot another pair's mistake.


Nope I didn't miss it; the facts are still the same; If you don't or cannot be bothered to check your scores / frequencies when they are posted and inside the correction period as set out; Then you cannot cry when you do look after the time is up and find them wrong

In the case of wrong Bridgemate Scores being entered that is down to the two pairs at the table to check correct entry

Otherwise it is TOUGH you must abide by the rlues of contest

:)
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#26 User is offline   MFA 

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Posted 2008-December-17, 04:41

shintaro, on Dec 17 2008, 04:00 AM, said:

:) MFA Quote

Did you miss the point that the 4th placed pair DID check their own score (which was correct) but the third placed pair DIDN'T (and they had too many points due to the bridgemate mistake)?

It could very hard for a pair to spot another pair's mistake.


Nope I didn't miss it; the facts are still the same; If you don't or cannot be bothered to check your scores / frequencies when they are posted and inside the correction period as set out; Then you cannot cry when you do look after the time is up and find them wrong

In the case of wrong Bridgemate Scores being entered that is down to the two pairs at the table to check correct entry

Otherwise it is TOUGH you must abide by the rlues of contest

:)

Hmm, I'm not sure I understand your post :).

But your general point is that the 30min correction period should be the final deadline no matter what? Or?

(Absent extreme cases such as later disqualification, I guess).
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#27 User is offline   shintaro 

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Posted 2008-December-17, 05:57

;)

My point is that you Abide by the rules of contest

Thus if you do not wait and check then you have nothing to cry about if the scores are wrong

There are logical exceptions one of which you state

<_<
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#28 User is offline   MFA 

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Posted 2008-December-17, 06:58

shintaro, on Dec 17 2008, 06:57 AM, said:

...
Thus if you do not wait and check then you have nothing to cry about if the scores are wrong
...

How do you check if the scores at the other tables are entered correctly?
<_<
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#29 User is offline   JoAnneM 

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Posted 2008-December-17, 10:17

Where is 30 minutes coming from? That's not for one session regular events. I work in Director's offices, they are correcting the next day!

And what medals and prize money are we talking about? I have never seen any of that, maybe I am playing in the wrong games. ACBL doesn't even allow prize money.
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#30 User is offline   shintaro 

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Posted 2008-December-17, 11:07

:)

How do you check if the scores at the other tables are entered correctly?


Obviously YOU dont nor for that matter can the TD's (assuming the score entered is possible) but that still does not alter the Conditions of Contest

If players do not enter the correct score and using Bridgemates confirm that what has been entered is indeed correct; then the only way round it is to start draconian measures for INCORRECT inputting/checking of scores; but that will not solve the problem of someone who only notices that THEY entered or agreed an Incorrect score when they look on the Internet 2 or 3 days later; how would you know at all if they were not posted on the internet; perhaps one answer is to NOT post frequencies on the Internet then no-one would know

That is life

The 30minutes Joanne I assume is ACBL contests but I do not know
We have similar time limits here in UK

:)
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#31 User is offline   MFA 

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Posted 2008-December-17, 12:54

JoAnneM, on Dec 17 2008, 11:17 AM, said:

Where is 30 minutes coming from? That's not for one session regular events.  I work in Director's offices, they are correcting the next day!

And what medals and prize money are we talking about?  I have never seen any of that, maybe I am playing in the wrong games.  ACBL doesn't even allow prize money.

The event we are talking about is the Danish Pairs Championships. Medals and prize money are awarded.
In Denmark we have a general rule of a 30min correction period. Special rules applies for some tournaments, though.

shintaro

Quote

...
My point is that you Abide by the rules of contest
...

It happens to be so nice that I'm in the committee that makes these rules. So if I don't like them, I'll just have them changed. :)
Therefore my question is purely political, how should the rules be? I was not part of the actual incident.
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#32 User is offline   Echognome 

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Posted 2008-December-17, 12:59

I think the problem is difficult. Of course keeping the onus on the players to check their scores if they think they are incorrectly too low is one thing. However, I don't think it's feasible to require players to check their scores and make sure they are not too high.

I think there are a couple of reasonable alternatives. One option is to keep the correction period to 30 minutes and say to everyone that the organizers will do their best to get the correct scores in and people should check all of their scores, but once the correction period is over, the scores are final.

Another option is to caveat the results, allowing for certain types of scoring errors, such as mistyping the score from the traveller (where there is a direct chain of evidence). So, the scores are "unofficial" until a later time when they become "official" and then just set a reasonable extended correction time for those types of errors. Maybe 1 day?
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#33 User is offline   shintaro 

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Posted 2008-December-17, 13:56

:)
...[/QUOTE]
It happens to be so nice that I'm in the committee that makes these rules. So if I don't like them, I'll just have them changed. :D
Therefore my question is purely political, how should the rules be? I was not part of the actual incident. [/QUOTE]
:)

However you or I feel about the rules we have to have them the Game just would not run efficientely without them

:)
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#34 User is offline   JoAnneM 

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Posted 2008-December-17, 17:30

Input errors off a traveler or pickup ticket should be the exception to any rules about time expiring. There are all kinds of reasons why you can't check your scores right away, including the crowd around the scores, in Boston the rail system shutting down too early, your ride won't wait for you, etc.

I think people need to lighten up about this kind of stuff.
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#35 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-December-17, 17:34

JoAnneM, on Dec 17 2008, 06:30 PM, said:

Input errors off a traveler or pickup ticket should be the exception to any rules about time expiring. There are all kinds of reasons why you can't check your scores right away, including the crowd around the scores, in Boston the rail system shutting down too early, your ride won't wait for you, etc.

I think people need to lighten up about this kind of stuff.

I have to agree. It's one thing if you have mistakenly signed an incorrect score slip, or left the table without signing for your score. But I can't believe there should be such an onus on the players to pay for mistakes made by the officials when they can so easily be found later.
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#36 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2008-December-18, 14:01

JoAnneM, on Dec 17 2008, 04:17 PM, said:

Where is 30 minutes coming from? That's not for one session regular events. I work in Director's offices, they are correcting the next day!

And what medals and prize money are we talking about? I have never seen any of that, maybe I am playing in the wrong games. ACBL doesn't even allow prize money.

maybe the ACBL doesn't offer prize money, but not everyone posting on this forum plays in ACBL events.
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#37 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2008-December-18, 14:03

JoAnneM, on Dec 17 2008, 11:30 PM, said:

Input errors off a traveler or pickup ticket should be the exception to any rules about time expiring. There are all kinds of reasons why you can't check your scores right away, including the crowd around the scores, in Boston the rail system shutting down too early, your ride won't wait for you, etc.

I think people need to lighten up about this kind of stuff.

It's not a matter of 'lightening up' or not, it's a matter of what the rules are. If the rules say there is a 30 minute correction period, then that's what there is and that's the end of it, you don't make special rules that only apply to some people.

As MFA says, it's more interesting to discuss what the rules actually should be.
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#38 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-December-18, 16:26

FrancesHinden, on Dec 18 2008, 03:03 PM, said:

JoAnneM, on Dec 17 2008, 11:30 PM, said:

I think people need to lighten up about this kind of stuff.

It's not a matter of 'lightening up' or not, it's a matter of what the rules are.

I equate that to saying "I'm not paranoid, everyone is just out to get me!"
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