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Question about a 2/1 sequence Balanced hands range

#1 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2008-November-21, 07:18

The sequence:

1M 1NT
2NT

is used by many partnerships to show a balanced 18-19 HCP hand, reserving

1M 1NT
3NT

to show a solid 6-card Major suit with 16-18 HCP.

However, some people play the first sequence as showing a balanced hand with a strong no-trump range (which wasn't opened as 1NT because of the 5-card Major) and the second one for bal. 18-19 HCP. Is there any downside to playing this way? Is there a standard way of playing it? What does one way have over the other in terms of reaching bad contracts? Is the second version I described 'unplayable'?

 wyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the ♥3.


 rbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#2 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2008-November-21, 08:13

System?

Meaning of 1NT, is it forcing, semi-forcing, nonforcing?

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#3 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2008-November-21, 08:15

I assumed 2/1 GF system which needs a forcing No Trump structure.

 wyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the ♥3.


 rbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#4 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-November-21, 09:07

Yes there are the obvious downsides.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#5 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2008-November-21, 09:55

So obvious you can't even mention them?

 wyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the ♥3.


 rbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#6 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-November-21, 12:01

Hanoi5, on Nov 21 2008, 10:55 AM, said:

So obvious you can't even mention them?

Responder doesn't get to show his hand. What shows a limit raise? What if he is very weak with a long minor, or a little stronger? What if he has 5 hearts and doesn't know if opener has 3?
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#7 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2008-November-21, 12:04

Quote

Responder doesn't get to show his hand. What shows a limit raise?


Bidding 4 of the Major.

Quote

What if he is very weak with a long minor, or a little stronger?


You'll have to define a little stronger, but if he's weak he can jolly well bid his minor being non-forcing.

Quote

What if he has 5 hearts and doesn't know if opener has 3?


As Hearts are very important let's say 3m after 2NT is sign off but not 3♥, which would show the 10-12 hand with at least 5 hearts.

 wyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the ♥3.


 rbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


My YouTube Channel
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#8 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-November-21, 12:05

I meant over 3NT, if 3NT shows 18-19. It looks like you think I meant over 2NT?
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#9 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2008-November-21, 12:08

Over 3NT responder can pass. Any other bid at the 4 level would be forward going, meaning 10+.

 wyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the ♥3.


 rbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


My YouTube Channel
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#10 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2008-November-21, 12:11

Hanoi5, on Nov 21 2008, 09:55 AM, said:

So obvious you can't even mention them?

How about
- you can't show the hand with a solid major and 16-18 in the style you suggest, and
- you might be too high with 15-17 opposite 6 hcp in 2NT?
Are these obvious enough?
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#11 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-November-21, 12:14

Hanoi5, on Nov 21 2008, 01:08 PM, said:

Over 3NT responder can pass. Any other bid at the 4 level would be forward going, meaning 10+.

Why do I feel like this is going in circles a little.

You ask what are the downsides to playing a 3NT rebid is 18-19 balanced. Say the auction goes 1♠ 1NT 3NT.

- Responder can't show both a very weak hand with a minor, and a hand with a minor that might make game or slam.
- Responder can't search for a heart fit.
- Responder can't show a limit raise in spades abd a very weak raise where he meant to bid 1NT then 2♠.

And those are just problems over the 3NT rebid itself. Cherdano lists other obvious problems.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#12 User is offline   InTime 

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Posted 2008-November-22, 13:44

The 3NT rebid is a very space consuming bid. It should therefore be reserved to show a specific hand whatever you and you partner should agree on. After this bid, it is up to responder to place the final contract.

What I have seen Richie Reisig training the juniors on BBO is that:
1m/1M - 1Any
3NT is describing a solid 6-card suit (minor or major) 18-19 pts.
Regards
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