[Flame]

Hello,
I'd like to hear your opinion on this issue.
We play a strong 1♣ relay system, and response 1♦ with 0-7 neg.
We had an argument to whether we should use strictly hcp or can have some judgment.
For example if have 5-5 with 7 hcp would it be right to show it as 8+ ?
At the actual incident i held 5-5 with a K and a J, (4 hcp). and after 1♣-1♦-1♥
desided not go give a second negative which is usually 0-4 in our system.
My partner believe that we should not evaluate like this because when he relay for shape he knows i have that special shape but assumes i also got the points.
I believe its beter to evaluate because it will help us in many decisions on non relay sequences, and if it happends to be a relay and he find out i got a nice shape he should assume i might be lighter on hcp.
What do you think ?

[rbforster]

I think the "standard" answer is to use judgment and have relayer be aware that extreme shapely hands may be lighter on points (and can't assume as many controls in response to asks, etc).

[EricK]

Good question!

Certainly a hand like ♠KQxxx ♥Qxxxx ♦xx ♣x is normally going to be better than one like ♠Jxxxx ♥Jxxxx ♦KJ ♣Q even though it has one fewer "point". On the other hand, it is not clear wether the best way to deal with this is to upgrade the former, downgrade the latter, or perhaps do both.

I'm not really that experienced with relay systems, but I tend to side with your partner on this one. I suspect that upgrading will only really help if your sytem is one whereby partner could pass in a situation where you are fairly sure that game should be bid. Or to put it another way, if you will generally be able to show your shape anyway in the non-relay auctions, then you are more likely to reach the correct contract if you don't upgrade than if you do.

[hrothgar]

If you're playing strong club and relay, then you better have some good auction termination rules.

The definition of a positive response needs to mesh with your auction termination rules and vice versa...

For example, playing MOSCITO, slam exploratory auctions normally proceed into denial cue bidding once shape has been revealed. Let's assume that relay responder has just bid 3D showing a 4=1=5=3 shape.

A step response asks RR to show his slam points using an A =3, King = 2, Q = 1 scale. RR's base slam points is 6. ANY positive response to a strong club opening promises 6+ slam points.

However, MOSCITO also has a rule that the base slam points are adjusted down by 1 if RR has shown 10+ cards in his two longest suits. (if RR has shown a 5-5, or a 6-4, or a 7-3, he doesn't need quite as many slam points)

[keylime]

If I have an A and K, I'm going to game with any hand with a five card suit in it - the three controls will be helpful to partner.

With 5-5's, any hand with two or three controls should go to game. If memory serves, you'll have something like a 5 in 6 chance of hitting some fit.

If your hand is quackish, downgrade, even the 8 counts.

I completely agree with hrothgar about having some discussions about bailing out of an auction; for me, 4 of a minor should be a stopping point if there's a complete misfit (and at times 3 of a major).

[dake50]

Do you have shape specific weak bids for 5-5? To 1C, 1st responses 2S..3H show 5-5, 5(KQ/AJ in longs) to 8, mostly because they foul shape relay. Even 1D-neg but shape rebid.

[Echognome]

I think you should add another requirement for a positive that you will have a certain number of controls along with your high cards. We define a positive as 9+ hcp and 2+ controls. Thus if we held: QJx QTx QJxx Qxx we would actually start with a 1♦ response (we can always drive to game after this start) and partner will get the idea of our hand type. We do make an exception holding two bare aces as being "9+", but otherwise stick to our requirements. I think it's ok to fudge a little with good shape, but then you and your partner need to agree this is a possibility and take this into consideration in further bidding after learning partner's shape.

For the semi-positive, we require that responder holds at least one control, so a hand with one or two Kings or a hand with one Ace might fall here.

[guido]

Mostly along the lines of the other comments ...

I suggest using something a bit "better" than the Work 4321 count. the simplest improvement would be to redefine your ranges in terms of a 321 count (A=3, K=2, Q=1). Perhaps not the best, but an easy improvement -- and definitely an improvement.

Paul

[hotShot]

A main factor of judgment is information. Playing a strong club, relay system responder has very little information about openers hand. Little information leads to poor judgment.

[blackshoe]

Romex Forcing Club (a Precision variant with features from Romex and Blue Team Club) uses control showing responses to 1♣. From memory:

1♦ 0-7 HCP, 0-4 controls, if 3-4 controls, fewer than 3 cover cards.
1♥ 3 controls, 3 or more cover cards
1♠ 4 controls, 3 or more cover cards
1NT 5 controls
2♣ 6 or more controls

Higher responses show specific hand types.

[pat 260z]

I think you should answer the negative because of the points then continue bidding after the opener bids so that opener can see that if you are bidding with 0-7 you must therefore have distributional values

[han]

I'd be very careful upgrading a 5-5 in response to a strong club.

[gwnn]

The thing is, calling the GF hands 8+ points is already stretching it a little bit for the sake of simplicity, of course, few people would GF with every balanced 8 count (Jxx Qxx QJ Qxxx) and then if we start forcing to game with good 7 counts it is not going to be a pretty sight.

[Cascade]

I think you should agree in advance.

[helene_t]

RHO's silence increases the chance that we have a misfit. Now if opener upgrades his 15 count with 5-5 in the black suits while we upgrade our 7 count with 5-5 in the red suits .....

Never say never but as Han says, be very careful.

[shintaro]

surely if you are playing any system Precision, Romex, Acol, (Sick And Yellow Colour);

You should just adhere to the system Otherwise why play a system

After 1♣(forcing opening) Partner has said they will re-bid, thus I see no problem

[mycroft]

We upgrade A, K (and in particular AK). We downgrade zero-, and some one-, control 8 counts. I agree with those who say that playing 8 as the GF is already aggressive, and we have our share of no-play 24-count zeroes. We also have our share of 24-count tops, either because we were forced, or we were able to pinpoint the right suit/slam cards.

But unless they're both majors, I agree with not upgrading 5-5s on shape; you have lots of time to say "oh, I don't have a 1D opener any more" if partner hits one of your suits.