[Free]

My solution to "precision problems": don't play precision...

[benlessard]

I have a hard times understanding why people are willing to play 1D as super nebulous to make sure their 2C have 6 clubs. I know its allow them to have an extra Nt range but still....

[Apollo81]

benlessard, on Oct 21 2008, 03:34 AM, said:

I have a hard times understanding why people are willing to play 1D as super nebulous to make sure their 2C have 6 clubs. I know its allow them to have an extra Nt range but still....

Some purposes are:

1. Opener and responder will have almost always reached the right contract after 2♣ all pass if it shows at least 6

2. Responder can raise to 3♣ (preemptive) on many more hands if it shows 6, making it a good offensive weapon.

3. Responder can more accurately judge the partnership's chance at game (3NT) if 2♣ shows 6. For instance AQx J10xx xxxx Kx looks like an invite to 3NT opposite a 6-card 2♣ (with a safe fallback in 3♣), but what to do over a 5-card 2♣? Give partner a 4135 minimum and 2♣ might even be the last making contract.

[han]

Because 2C with 5 sucks.

[jdonn]

benlessard, on Oct 21 2008, 02:34 AM, said:

I have a hard times understanding why people are willing to play 1D as super nebulous to make sure their 2C have 6 clubs. I know its allow them to have an extra Nt range but still....

For the same reason it's pretty dumb to bid 1♣ 1X 2♣ with five if you have an alternative?

[keylime]

For me, when playing a standard precision here were the things that drove me nuts:

1. The inability to decipher a 1D opening, unless it promised either an unbalanced hand or four diamonds. In one variant I used all 11-15 balanced hands were opened 1NT; combined with Keri, the range issue wasn't a problem. This was the main determinant for me moving to 4 card majors, and then to canape.

2. The lack of proper discussion on handling interference over the strong club, especially in 5th seat auctions.

3. The original 2♣ opening showing only 5 clubs with a major.

[awm]

benlessard, on Oct 21 2008, 02:34 AM, said:

I have a hard times understanding why people are willing to play 1D as super nebulous to make sure their 2C have 6 clubs. I know its allow them to have an extra Nt range but still....

(1) When you have 6+♣, you do much better if 2♣ opening promises six. Noble explained it.

(2) When you have 5♣/4M, you actually often do better by opening 1♦, because it is easier for you to find the major suit fit when responder is not particularly strong (and might pass 2♣).

(3) When you actually have diamonds, you'd imagine that you suffer somewhat because your 1♦ opening doesn't say much about your hand. But if you were already routinely opening 1♦ on many balanced hands with doubleton diamond, adding in a few rare hands with singleton diamond doesn't make it all that much worse.

(4) You can potentially free up 2♦ for a preempt (natural or artificial) or an intermediate two bid, either of which could win you a bunch of boards.

[benlessard]

Quote

1. Opener and responder will have almost always reached the right contract after 2♣ all pass if it shows at least 6

Yep but im sure that we go wrong less often after a 2C opening (5C+) than std precision after a 1D bid.

Quote

(2) When you have 5♣/4M, you actually often do better by opening 1♦, because it is easier for you to find the major suit fit when responder is not particularly strong (and might pass 2

yep but you do worse when you have 5D/4M or when your are 1435 with no fit in the majors.

Quote

2. Responder can raise to 3♣ (preemptive) on many more hands if it shows 6, making it a good offensive weapon.

Yes but you dont raise diamonds, its way better raising diamond that show 5 and sometimes 4 and clubs that show 5 and sometimes 6 than raising only clubs that show 6 and raising D that show 2.

Quote

But if you were already routinely opening 1D on many balanced hands with doubleton diamond, adding in a few rare hands with singleton diamond doesn't make it all that much worse.

This is the only reason that give 1D 2+ some sense, the ability to add an extra Nt range, but i dont think its worth it.

Quote

For instance AQx J10xx xxxx Kx looks like an invite to 3NT opposite a 6-card 2♣ (with a safe fallback in 3♣), but what to do over a 5-card 2♣? Give partner a 4135 minimum and 2♣ might even be the last making contract.

I agree thats why the standard responses over 2C sucks. For us we will bid 2H on the hand ==INV with 4H or with 5 bad H and a club tolerance. Its possible that 2M in 4-3, 5-3 is the last +.

[NickRW]

You can have 2C = 6+ no 4cM, 1D = 4+ and 2D = free for preempts if you play AUC.

[whereagles]

What I most dislike is the 1♦ and 2♣ openers. They both suck big time.

I think it might work far better if you dump BOTH into 1♣ and open a strong 1♦.

[Tcyk]

I played Match Point Precision when it first came out and 1D could be 0+ if you held something like 4=1=0=7 shape. The 1D opening never gave us troubles. It was the crummy major suit overcalls when we opened 1NT. We never seemed to
have the hand to penalize them.

You need to take a Kaplan-Sheinwold approach to opening 1D. You do so only with unbalanced hands. It might be right to open 1D with a balanced 11 or 12 count on occasion but I suspect that in the long run pass is better.

[Tcyk]

Some Precision bidders are now using what they refer to as Complex Diamond. Responder shows the strength of their hand with 1-level steps similar to that described in Janus. We have an artificial opening with artificial responses.
Pass shows less than 6 HCP
1H shows 6-9 HCP
1S shows 10-13 HCP
1NT shows 14+ HCP
and I think 2-level bids show long suits with a weak hand.
I believe Oliver Clarke has published something about it on his Precision web site.

[jtfanclub]

My main problem is finding partners to play it (everybody has their slightly different version), and the whining by opponents. Oh, and trying to fill out the (paper) convention cards. For responses over 1 of a minor, for example, they have a tiny slot for 2NT. Thanks, ACBL.