[Dwingo]

This post is slowly shifting from a Kibitzing thread to a Cheating thread

1. People from a spcific country cheat more than others
2. Kibitzers are generally there to assist Cheaters

Stereotyping a group of people like this in a Public Forum is a not the way to go.

Having said that, most people here seem to agree that online cheating can never be eliminated completely and the the majority of members should not be deprived the right to kibitz because of a few cheats

In the main bridge club, the host can bar kibitzers and the players decide in which environment they want to play. In tournaments, this choice is not available to the player to debar kibitzers. I have seen a few tournaments in which "Kibitzers are not allowed". But the majority of the tourneys still allow kibitzers.

If those tourneys where " Kibitzers are not allowed" have a facility where the dummy cannot see anyother hand ( not even partner's hand like in ftf bridge), then atleast you have made it harder for the cheats. This selection by the TD should be visible to players before they sign up for the tourney. The cheats seeing this might not sign up for such tourneys making it a pleasurable experience for the others in the tourney. I am not recommending all tourneys to be like this. The choice should be available to TD. Once a week, I wouldn't mind playing in a tourney like this.

Another related feature I would like to see

1. When someone registers as sub in a tourney, he/she should be automatically be barred for kibitzing the same tourney & using the same logic, If he/she has been kibitzing a tourney, then they lose the right to register as a sub for the tourney.

[joker_gib]

Free, on Apr 5 2004, 11:50 AM, said:

Lets just give you an example of 2 country's, and you tell me which country is known 'the most' for cheating, and I certainly DON'T say that EVERYONE in any of these country's is playing fair or if they're cheating, just that in one of the country's there are more known FACTS of cheaters:

1) Poland
2) Spain

Djeez, if you'd just be able to put away your horseglasses and watch around instead of 1 direction, you wouldn't quote THAT sentence of me...

I don't understand and I won't comment on that anymore !

Fortunately, there are a lot of more interesting subjects on the forum

[McBruce]

As a tournament director who now bans kibitzers until the final rounds when most are already finished, I want to ask those who demand the right to kibitz their favorite experts this question:

Why is it so important to kibitz live when the myhands page allows you to see everything with the added advantage that you can slow down the pace to figure out why the expert made an unusual bid/play?

Let me be clear here: I hate having to ban kibitzers from my tourneys just because a few may misuse the privilege, but a look at some of the unusual results people alert me to has convinced me I must. I just wonder if kibitzers know that you can follow players on myhands if you are interested in learning from them.

[luis]

McBruce, on Apr 6 2004, 08:04 PM, said:

As a tournament director who now bans kibitzers until the final rounds when most are already finished, I want to ask those who demand the right to kibitz their favorite experts this question:

Why is it so important to kibitz live when the myhands page allows you to see everything with the added advantage that you can slow down the pace to figure out why the expert made an unusual bid/play?

Let me be clear here: I hate having to ban kibitzers from my tourneys just because a few may misuse the privilege, but a look at some of the unusual results people alert me to has convinced me I must. I just wonder if kibitzers know that you can follow players on myhands if you are interested in learning from them.

For the same reason as a tape of a golf tournament or a soccer match doesn't interest a lot of people while the live broadcast can have millions of spectators.
Kibitzers like watching "live" bridge.

[inquiry]

McBruce,

I think the ability to kbitiz people in the BBO is one of the sites very best features. So until you stop your ban on kibitzers, I am going to protest your tournments. So starting right now, until the day you allow kibitizers, I will protest your actions by NOT KIBITZING any of your tournments. I also ask all my friend and enemies alike to join my silent protest and agree that they can play in, but will not kibitiz your tournments until you see the errors of you ways. The lack of kibitizers in your tournment will be a sign that teh protest I am leading is working. rofl

Ben

[mishovnbg]

McBruce, on Apr 6 2004, 10:04 PM, said:

As a tournament director who now bans kibitzers until the final rounds when most are already finished, I want to ask those who demand the right to kibitz their favorite experts this question:

Why is it so important to kibitz live when the myhands page allows you to see everything with the added advantage that you can slow down the pace to figure out why the expert made an unusual bid/play?

Let me be clear here: I hate having to ban kibitzers from my tourneys just because a few may misuse the privilege, but a look at some of the unusual results people alert me to has convinced me I must.  I just wonder if kibitzers know that you can follow players on myhands if you are interested in learning from them.

I will join the protest and will ask all my friends and stars I know to not play at your tournaments more, with reasonable argument they will not enjoy there - can't earn money and people can't admire their play...

Spoiler

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Misho

[inquiry]

mishovnbg, on Apr 6 2004, 04:09 PM, said:

I will join the protest and will ask all my friends and stars I know to not play at your tournaments more, with reasonable argument they will not enjoy there - can't earn money and people can't admire their play...

Spoiler

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Misho

Well.. Misho, that goes much further than I advocate... I am simply asking that no ONE KIBITZ... play is ok, but in protest of not allowing kibitizers, I think we should all avoid kibitizing, until he sees the light.

Ben

[mpefritz]

I think kibs should be allowed in general. When there is a group of kibbers, it is nice to have interaction between them discussing the hands while they are being played. Kibs not being allowed to chat to players should be fine.

In fact, I just realized a real easy way to cheat. Be a slow player in an unclocked tourney, have a friend be a fast player and have him e-mail me the hands. I often immediately save a movie to my desktop, and use deep finesse to help me analyze it on the spot. Nothing to stop me from sending it on to someone else (oh yeah, except something called ethics, and the overwhelming guilt of destroying the game).

If McBruce feels his core players prefer not to have kibs, then fine. He must balance the "allow all kibs" faction and the "kibs might help cheat so ban them" faction.

I think someone can register as a sub and still kib. They just have to honest with the bidding and play of the hand if they saw one or two hands before they got called in. I have kibbed and subbed in and called the director on myself to verify that I was making calls that were appropriate.

fritz

[the hog]

inquiry, on Apr 7 2004, 08:12 AM, said:

mishovnbg, on Apr 6 2004, 04:09 PM, said:

I will join the protest and will ask all my friends and stars I know to not play at your tournaments more, with reasonable argument they will not enjoy there - can't earn money and people can't admire their play...

Spoiler

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Misho

Well.. Misho, that goes much further than I advocate... I am simply asking that no ONE KIBITZ... play is ok, but in protest of not allowing kibitizers, I think we should all avoid kibitizing, until he sees the light.

Ben

Not allowing kibbitzers goes against the whole spirit and concept of bbo imho. The ability to be able to kibb good players in "real time" is one of the joys of this site. Its a pity that some wish to spoil this aspect.

Ron

[Rhutobello]

Agree on all account when it comes to kibbitz

I think talking about cheating...don't allow kibbitzer because you are afreid of cheating. and so on..just have on big drawback "You destroy the fun of the game"

I don't belive there are THAT much cheating...but if we all talk all the time about it, our BRAIN and our EGO will se it every time we make our own dumb mistakes.

Take the fun back...play BRIDGE and accept that someone are a bit more lucky then you

Have a nice day
Edvin

[helium]

The_Hog, on Apr 6 2004, 05:06 PM, said:

inquiry, on Apr 7 2004, 08:12 AM, said:

mishovnbg, on Apr 6 2004, 04:09 PM, said:

I will join the protest and will ask all my friends and stars I know to not play at your tournaments more, with reasonable argument they will not enjoy there - can't earn money and people can't admire their play...

Spoiler

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Misho

Well.. Misho, that goes much further than I advocate... I am simply asking that no ONE KIBITZ... play is ok, but in protest of not allowing kibitizers, I think we should all avoid kibitizing, until he sees the light.

Ben

Not allowing kibbitzers goes against the whole spirit and concept of bbo imho. The ability to be able to kibb good players in "real time" is one of the joys of this site. Its a pity that some wish to spoil this aspect.

Ron

agrre ron


kenneth

[irdoz]

The intent of both the laws and the policies of most NBAs is to encouraging kibitzing.

As a regular kibitzer there is simply no comparison between watching 'Live' and traipsing through old hand records.

[Dwingo]

Quote

Not allowing kibbitzers goes against the whole spirit and concept of bbo imho. The ability to be able to kibb good players in "real time" is one of the joys of this site. Its a pity that some wish to spoil this aspect.

There are a whole lot of good players and STARS playing in the Main Bridge Club, where kibitzers are freely allowed. Please feel free to kibitz here. It is not as though BBO is putting a blanket ban on kibitzing.

Going after a TD who bans kibitzers in his tourneys and rallying support not to play in his tourney, is likely to split this Forum into 2 distinct groups.

Lets put this in perspective

1. McBruce , using his TD rights and his circle of influence, is trying to curb/minimise the cheating aspect in his tourney. Nothing wrong with that.
Atleast he is taking a positive step to make it difficult for the cheats.
2. There are more than enough tournaments where "Kibitzers are allowed". "Kibitzers not allowed " tournaments are in a minority currently.
3. As with other things, TD's should be given the option of choosing "Kibitzers not allowed". The flexible options in the various tournaments makes BBO a great site.

Quote

In fact, I just realized a real easy way to cheat. Be a slow player in an unclocked tourney, have a friend be a fast player and have him e-mail me the hands. I often immediately save a movie to my desktop, and use deep finesse to help me analyze it on the spot. Nothing to stop me from sending it on to someone else (oh yeah, except something called ethics, and the overwhelming guilt of destroying the game).

I am quoting fritz. This is all the more reason to ban kibitzers in unclocked tournaments. Why should the poor cheat made to work so hard in the current hand that he is playing and analysing a hand that he is going to play. The kibitzer can make it easy for the cheat by doing the analysis on Deep finesse and e-mail the results to his slow playing cheating friend.

[inquiry]

HEY, my comment to McBruce about refusing to kibitz his tournments until he allowed kibitizers was a joke, as well as rectuit others to refuse to kibitz them. I mean, HE DOESN"T ALLOW kibitzers, so by refusing to kibitzing waht harm can be done.

If a director chooses to disallow kbitzers, so be it. That option is a feature to allow a director to do just that, should he want to. All that I ask is that the director make the no kibizers clear in the tournmnet write up.

I happen to think that thre is a place for both events that allow and that ban tournments. However, I am like misho, I prefer to support tevents that allow kibitizers. What sets the BBO appart from other on line bridge sites, it that it is an educational-based site, that helps new and intermediate players. Kibitizing is just one way it does this.

Ben

[the hog]

We realised you made a joke Ben, doh. I may be Australian but I don't think upside down - just walk upside down.


No one is recruiting anyone not to kibbitz or not to play in a kibbitzer free tournament zone. No one is "going after" anybody, but it is fair and reasonable to comment on a TD who publicly comes out and makes the statement that he bans kibitzers in the first few rounds of a tournament.

The problem with McBruce's attitude is the following. McBruce's actions create a precedent. No one denies the right of a TD to set whatever conditions he/she wishes to have for his tournament. However, McBruce's actions DO create a precedent. Other TDs can use the very argument "X has already done this, so why can't I?" Or "This is a method that X uses to combat cheating, I guess it works. I'll try it", and so the rot spreads. What you do not want happening is that this action eventually becomes the catalyst for a large number of Bbo TDs adopting such policies.

Sure not all will take such an action, but even if some do, it does spoil the opportunity to kib. The fact that I have never kibbitzed anyone in any of McBruce's tournaments is totally irrelevant. And I am not just talking about kibbing stars or "good" players here. I occasionally kib you as well, Ben. Seriously, I do enjoy kibbitzing friends such as Richard, Misho and yourself when you play in a tournament. Furthermore I was not joking when I said that one of the joys of this site is to kibbitz top players. The argument that you can look up hands in "my hands" is a poor one. As Luis and others have stated, nothing beats actually kibbitzing in real time, seeing the bids and plays made. I doubt whether too many would use other options to follow the plays.

The other question I would ask, is "what good does banning kibbitzers actually do?" If you want to cheat, there are far more effective ways of doing so rather than the relatively obvious one of having a kibbitzer follow from table to table relaying hands.

So, "yes", it IS important to let TDs and others know how many of us feel about this issue.

Cheers

Ron

[mishovnbg]

Spoiler

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Hi all!

Spoiler

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While Ben made a joke, I AM VERY SERIOUS!!! I am very rare angry and have near zero ambitions, but I am afraid that theese directors who ban kibitzers will make angry enough people to ban their tourneys instead of kibitzers. I am too busy to menage tournaments, but to defend such noble cаuse like kibitzing I hope to find time and powers.

Spoiler

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About cheating and kibitzers. Why heed to have kibitzer for cheating, when you may have another player for same reason? Even better, I can play with myself, hehe! I can even make a party of several "me" and at imp tourney with pickup partner will be with at least 50 imp ahead... I think even TD's can understand, what else can be done by messengers, simple phone....

Spoiler

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Last time I kibitz finals of some tourney I notice that one pair did very unusual lead in bidded suit KJxx, while in unbid suit holding was QJxx in unbid major was 1098. I quickly checked leads on other tables at final and found 1 more pair, by the way I am sorry to say Frederick is may be right. I also don't like cheaters in tournaments, so I think how to catch them. My last and probably realy good idea is to add several predealt boards as traps for cheaters only. It is really not hard to do that - very unusual leads, play, slams... Other boards can be randomly predealt or selected, how TD like. One board can be lucky, 2 boards can be lucky day, 3 boards can lead do conclusion... By the way the main method of police against corruption is similar .

Spoiler

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Misho

[McBruce]

Let me get this straight, because it is an argument I have seen several times here and it still strikes me as completely illogical.

mishovnbg: "About cheating and kibitzers. Why [do you n]eed to have kibitzer for cheating"

The_Hog: "what good does banning kibbitzers actually do?" If you want to cheat, there are far more effective ways of doing so"

If I had time on my hands and was not so busy spending time on a fairly successful tournament series, I would find more quotes in other threads that seem to support this argument:

No action should ever be taken in an effort to REDUCE cheating unless it COMPLETELY ELIMINATES cheating.

And I don't get this at all. The easiest way for one person alone to cheat is to use two BBO connections and play/kibitz at the same time. If I remove this and as a result 99 cheaters move to the second easiest method (whatever the hell that is), but a single cheater decides to forget it and just play bridge instead, this is a VICTORY in the struggle against cheating. It is a nuisance to those who just want to kibitz, but there are many other opportunities for that: I'm in this for those who want to play, I'm not spending my time to create a kibitzing environment. My choice is to do something for the players at a small inconvenience to the kibitzers. (By the way, I do allow kibitzers in the final 15-20 minutes of a tournament, once 12 boards of 15 are completed by all, after most of the fast players are done.)

TDs reading this: a lot of you work harder than I do even. Do any kibitzers ever thank you for your work?

There are countless ways BBO could set a middle ground here. The tourney software could be revised to allow tournament kibitzers to see only what the player they are kibitzing sees, not all four hands. Or tournament kibitzers could be forced to watch one table only regardless of who is playing at it. I'd reopen to kibitzers in a flash if that happened.

Hey, what the hell good are screens? If Meckwell want to cheat there are a million ways they can do so even with screens, right? So let's burn all the screens, they're useless in combating cheating and they're a real nuisance.

Does that make sense to you?

[mink]

hi McBruce,

Quote

If I remove this and as a result 99 cheaters move to the second easiest method (whatever the hell that is), but a single cheater decides to forget it and just play bridge instead, this is a VICTORY in the struggle against cheating.

I see this point and you are right about it. BUT: By disallowing kibitzers you have already allowed the cheaters to celebrate a victory over the the honest players!

I am absolutely supporting the reduction of cheating, but the only way to do this is to ban cheaters, and before you ban them, you have to find out about them. Often a kibitzer is more likely to detect a possible cheat than the opps of the cheater. In fact, the only case where a possible cheat was detected in one of my tourneys was by a kibitzer.

I am determined, whenever I see some evidence for a cheat, to investigate in myhands and then, if it looks like there is really cheating going on, report the case to abuse. If at least the readers of this forum do the same, it should be a miracle if cheaters survive longer than a few weeks.

Of couse, if this generates too much work for Uday and Fred, a commitee that verifys cheating allegations would be fine - this has already been proposed in some other thread.

Ok, maybe there are some expert cheaters who do the cheating so subtile and sometimes just avoid to cheat when they could so that it is hard to detect them. However, I doubt that cheating on expert level is much of a problem. I believe that cheaters are fairly foolish, because if they had the ability to win a tourney without cheating, why should they cheat then?

Karl

[helium]

I think its really sad that some cheaters make us discouss if its best to dissalow kibitzing from tourneys on bbo,this is one of the best things bbo has to offer and we should never change this. its many things bbo could and are doing to prevent cheeters but this is not one of them i hope.

kenneth

[Free]

That's the big problem with cheaters Helium. Even if they would read this topic, they still wouldn't care about it...