[maxentius]

I try to find a good way to ask about kings...how do you use to play?

[paulg]

After keycard blackwood I use the king ask to inquire about specific kings.

So, assuming spades are trumps, 5NT would ask and then:

6♣ shows either the ♣K or both ♦K and ♥K
6♦ shows either the ♦K or both ♣K and ♥K
6♥ shows either the ♥K or both ♦K and ♣K
6♠ denies a king

This method works best if you are using kickback (that is, using 4♠ as keycard for hearts, etc) so that there is always space for it to work.

I use the same philosophy when responding to the queen-ask in keycard.

Paul

[maxentius]

nice convention...I already heard about it...but does it works if the agreed suit is ♣ or ♦?

let's suppose we have ♦ fit...4NT-5♠ (2KC w ♦Q)-5NT=kings asking...how do you answer?

[P_Marlowe]

Fairly similar to what was already described:

Specific kings, rolling, i.e.
#1 If the Queen was clarified in the RKCB answer,
the next step starts the king ask, if not, the 2nd
sep (as long as it is not the agreed trump suit)
#2 You show kings, beginning with the cheapest, by
passing a suit denies a king in the bypassed suit
#3 Bidding NT as answer showes to king of the relay
suit

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

maxentius, on Aug 13 2008, 05:55 AM, said:

nice convention...I already heard about it...but does it works if the agreed suit is ♣ or ♦?

let's suppose we have ♦ fit...4NT-5♠ (2KC w ♦Q)-5NT=kings asking...how do you answer?

It works, although, you have to be careful.
Most peoble will have clarified the possession
of kings earlier via cue bids.
The alternative, would be to play 4C / 4D as
RKCB for the minor, which frees up space.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jdonn]

One good thing to play is when hearts are trumps and partner responds 5♥, two keycards without the heart queen, you can play 5♠ asks for specific kings up the line, with 5NT over that showing the spade king.

[Free]

I prefer specific Kings (asked with the first step available), but not the "either or" approach. Just bid Kings up the line, partner can ask for a specific King by bidding the suit.

Example (don't look at the quality of the preempt, it's just setting trumps):
4♠ - 4NT
5♥ - 5NT
6♦ - 6♥
7♠

6♦ shows ♦K, denies ♣K (otherwise bid 6♣)
6♥ asks to bid grand with ♥K

In most (read 99.9%) situations these methods have the same efficiency, although I remember seeing a hand where the "either or" approach didn't work (asker had a void and needed 1 King, not the other one). I don't remember one where my approach fails. You can probably construct one ofcourse

[rbforster]

I also prefer specific kings, up the line, with a new suit bid by King Asker below 6 of our suit asking for the grand if you also have that king.

Free, on Aug 13 2008, 11:13 AM, said:

In most (read 99.9%) situations these methods have the same efficiency, although I remember seeing a hand where the "either or" approach didn't work (asker had a void and needed 1 King, not the other one).  I don't remember one where my approach fails.  You can probably construct one ofcourse 

The bad case is where Asker doesn't care about the cheapest king, but needs both the higher ones. Then if he hears the first step, he can't safely invite the grand. Obviously he's hoping to hear the 2nd one so he can then ask about the 3rd one. One might ask what he was doing all that bidding on with no side kings, but that's the bad case. I'm not sure other asking methods will help with this however (he's unsure if you play the "either or" method, and # of kings doesn't help here either).

[SoTired]

usually asker needs a specific king for grand. here is the reply structure (same for when replier gives specific king to Q-ask), using same example as above:

4S 4N
5H 5N
6D 6H
?
6D shows ♦K. 6H asks for ♥K. Replies are:
6S = no second round control in hearts
6N = ♥K
7H = ♥KQ
7S = singleton heart (if sure this is ok)

[blackshoe]

Not generally a good idea to BW when you have a void, unless you play voidwood.

When spades are trump:

4NT asks (RCKB). After either of the first two steps, the next step asks for the Q of trump. The next step after that (by the teller) denies that Q. If teller skips that step, he shows the Q and denies a side king, either in a side suit bid by the partnership if there is one, or the lowest ranking. So, assuming no side suits bid:

4NT:.................Key Cards?
..........5♣:.....0 or 3
5♦:...................♠Q?
..........5♥:.....No
..........5♠:.....Yes, but no side kings
..........5NT:....Yes, and the ♣K, but no others
..........6♣:......Yes, and the ♣ and ♦ Ks
etc.

Over 5♥, 5♠ is to play, and 5NT asks for kings, replies along the same lines as above. A reply showing the Q is forcing to 6♠.

If a lower ranking suit than spades is trumps, then I prefer Kickback (4 of the suit above trumps is RKCB).

You could play 1430, but playing Kickback I don't think it gains you much.

If ♥ had been bid naturally by the partnership in the earlier auction, then 5NT would show the ♠Q and the ♥K, and 6♣ would show the ♠Q, and ♥ and ♣ Ks.

[Echognome]

I posted on this topic a little less than a year ago:

http://forums.bridge...showtopic=21144

[jdonn]

The only caveat I would add to your post a year ago is something VERY useful (and what I think is the major flaw or error in the method you propose.) When you ask for the queen and partner denies it, 5NT is natural and says "We are off a keycard and the queen of trumps but we have enough values that I expect this to make. If you have some extra unshown values, bid 6NT or offer a new suit to play in." Anyway it's sound to suppose if we ask for the trump queen and partner denies it, a grand is out of the picture, so this is a ton more useful than as an ask for kings.

This can also occasionally be done by the player who has denied the trump queen, as long as you play the cheapest bid as denial rather than a return to the trump suit.

spades trump
4NT 5♣
5♦ (spade queen?) 5♥ (no)
5♠ (to play, off keycard + trump queen) 5NT (but I have enough to believe this should make, and if you have some extra high card values I think we have the tricks for 6NT)

ATxx KQJTx Kx Kx
KJxx Ax QJx AQxx

1♥ 1♠
3♠ 4NT
5♣ (1/4) 5♦
5♥ 5♠
5NT! 6NT

Maybe not a perfect example but I'm not going to put much work into finding one. The idea should be clear.

[cherdano]

I am skeptical of spiral scan unless your keycard ask starts at a rather low level (e.g. 1N 2H 2S 4C = rkcb for spades).

I like the 5N suggestion by Josh, except I don't see the point of it being used by RKCB responder. If keycard-asker doesn't know where to play missing a keycard and trump queen, why did he ask? Luckily, I don't have the problem, since I play the return to the trump suit as queen denial.

[Echognome]

cherdano, on Aug 13 2008, 12:15 PM, said:

I am skeptical of spiral scan unless your keycard ask starts at a rather low level (e.g. 1N 2H 2S 4C = rkcb for spades).

I like the 5N suggestion by Josh, except I don't see the point of it being used by RKCB responder. If keycard-asker doesn't know where to play missing a keycard and trump queen, why did he ask? Luckily, I don't have the problem, since I play the return to the trump suit as queen denial.

I can't possibly fathom why you would be sceptical.

Start with your 4NT keycard ask. My contention is that spiral will do as least as well as your specific K ask. After all, it's just that. But I think if you use the return to 5M as denial, then you are missing out on valuable space. Obviously you can assign whatever you want to the intervening bids. But I really don't see why spiral would need to be bid any lower than a regular K ask. I personally think it's a case of Heads I win, Tails I tie. Can't ask for more than that.

[Lobowolf]

Free, on Aug 13 2008, 11:13 AM, said:

I prefer specific Kings (asked with the first step available), but not the "either or" approach. Just bid Kings up the line, partner can ask for a specific King by bidding the suit.

Example (don't look at the quality of the preempt, it's just setting trumps):
4♠ - 4NT
5♥ - 5NT
6♦ - 6♥
7♠

6♦ shows ♦K, denies ♣K (otherwise bid 6♣)
6♥ asks to bid grand with ♥K

In most (read 99.9%) situations these methods have the same efficiency, although I remember seeing a hand where the "either or" approach didn't work (asker had a void and needed 1 King, not the other one). I don't remember one where my approach fails. You can probably construct one ofcourse

Pretty much how I play it, except that over 6♥, I'd bid 7 of any non-spade suit to show a card (usually queen) in that suit (cheapest), which can help get to 7NT if we're greedy at pairs or concerned about a bad trump split. On your auction, 7♠ would deny all queens.

[cherdano]

Echognome, on Aug 13 2008, 02:50 PM, said:

cherdano, on Aug 13 2008, 12:15 PM, said:

I am skeptical of spiral scan unless your keycard ask starts at a rather low level (e.g. 1N 2H 2S 4C = rkcb for spades).

I like the 5N suggestion by Josh, except I don't see the point of it being used by RKCB responder. If keycard-asker doesn't know where to play missing a keycard and trump queen, why did he ask? Luckily, I don't have the problem, since I play the return to the trump suit as queen denial.

I can't possibly fathom why you would be sceptical.

Start with your 4NT keycard ask. My contention is that spiral will do as least as well as your specific K ask. After all, it's just that. But I think if you use the return to 5M as denial, then you are missing out on valuable space. Obviously you can assign whatever you want to the intervening bids. But I really don't see why spiral would need to be bid any lower than a regular K ask. I personally think it's a case of Heads I win, Tails I tie. Can't ask for more than that.

Haven't we had that discussion years ago? Specific king ask isn't only an ask for specific king, it is also a statement that we have all keycards and partner might jump to 7 if he has an undisclosed trick source etc. Sometimes responder can bid 5N = "I have something useful that I haven't shown yet, but that I can't show below 6 of the trump suit" and keycard asker can guess with certainty what that extra is. Etc.

I also don't understand why I am wasting space with return to the trump suit as denial, of course intervening bids already show the king of that suit.
Btw, do you modify spiral scan when there has been cuebidding earlier on?

[blackshoe]

cherdano, on Aug 13 2008, 03:15 PM, said:

I am skeptical of spiral scan unless your keycard ask starts at a rather low level (e.g. 1N 2H 2S 4C = rkcb for spades).

Romex players have been using the Spiral Scan for at least 25 years, and probably longer. If it were a problem, Rosenkranz and company would have given it up years ago.

That said, it's true that there are quite a few Romex sequences where the keycard ask is at a low level. Not including the particular one you cite, though, since Romex includes an artificial 1NT opening.

[blackshoe]

cherdano, on Aug 13 2008, 04:44 PM, said:

Haven't we had that discussion years ago? Specific king ask isn't only an ask for specific king, it is also a statement that we have all keycards...

So, in general, is the spiral scan (although, when it starts with the queen ask, it is not. Continuations after the reply are, though.)

Quote

Btw, do you modify spiral scan when there has been cuebidding earlier on?

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I don't.

[Echognome]

cherdano, on Aug 13 2008, 01:44 PM, said:

Haven't we had that discussion years ago? Specific king ask isn't only an ask for specific king, it is also a statement that we have all keycards and partner might jump to 7 if he has an undisclosed trick source etc. Sometimes responder can bid 5N = "I have something useful that I haven't shown yet, but that I can't show below 6 of the trump suit" and keycard asker can guess with certainty what that extra is. Etc.

I also don't understand why I am wasting space with return to the trump suit as denial, of course intervening bids already show the king of that suit.
Btw, do you modify spiral scan when there has been cuebidding earlier on?

Maybe there is some confusion. What I stated in my post *is* a specific King ask. I mean it's the same type of question you would ask. Take a sequence like:

1♠ - 4NT
5♠* - 5NT
?

*2 keycards with ♠Q

Here the specific King ask played standard is extremely similar to the spiral ask, except that 6♣ denies the ♣K. Of course, my point is that responder could have bid 6♣ to ask for the ♦K instead or 6♦ if his interest was only in the ♥K. So the asks become specific. Of course, you probably have assigned a different meaning to 6♣, 6♦, and 6♥. That's fine.

Now let's take a different sequence:

1♥ - 4NT
5♣* - ?

*1 or 4 keycards, Q♥ unknown

Now, I'm proposing that 5♦ asks for the ♥Q, with 5♥ denying it. 5♥ is to play. 5♠ asks for specific Kings starting with the ♣K. This only differs from what you probably play in that we start with the ♣K rather than the ♠K. So a lot of it is simply shuffling the responses and varying what the asks are. Of course with spiral you are limited in the questions you can ask, but you can focus on what responses you are after.

Fundamentally, the questions and inferences are still the same. For responder to want to ask about specific Kings, he is interested in grand.

By the way, Robson proposed a different (but simple) response structure to the specific King ask. With only one outside K, you bid that suit. With two outside Kings, you bid the suit of the King you do not hold. With no outside Kings you return to 6 of the suit. Finally, with all 3 outside Kings, you show outside Qs (or 3rd round controls as you see fit).

[cherdano]

I guess my point is that the meaning of a bid such as 4N 5C 5D (queen ask) 5N (have the queen, and s.th. else) is HIGHLY context specific after an informative natural auction. Of course you can make up rules about how your spiral scan changes when one partner is limited/has cued suit x/has not cued suit y/hasn't shown slam interest etc. etc. but I would assume you need a lot of rules to make it as efficient as a 5N bid in a good partnership just playing specific king asks.