[Walddk]

1♣ - 1♠
2♦ - 2♥
3♣ - 3NT/4NT

2♦ is a normal reverse, longer clubs than diamonds.
2♥ 4th suit.

In terms of high cards, how much do you expect with responder for 3NT and 4NT respectively, provided that you treat 4NT as natural?

And ... if he had bid 2NT followed by 3NT over 3♣?

Roland

[mike777]

1) I would guess 3nt is around 9-12 and 4nt is around 13-14.

2) 2nt is limited to a max of 9 for me. so I would guess around 7+ to 9- or so....

[Walddk]

mike777, on Aug 11 2008, 12:06 AM, said:

1) I would guess 3nt is around 9-12 and 4nt is around 13-14.

2) 2nt is limited to a max of 9 for me. so I would guess around 7+ to 9- or so....

And how much would a direct 3NT over 2♦ show?

Roland

[gnasher]

Walddk, on Aug 10 2008, 11:12 PM, said:

And how much would a direct 3NT over 2♦ show?

The same high card strength as 2H followed by 3NT, but a different hand.

[Cascade]

This depends on the purpose of 4th suit forcing ...

If it might be simply to find a spade fit then 3NT is (8)9-12(13)

If on the other hand 2♠ would be natural and unlimited then I would expect something nearer the upper range 11-13 for the 3NT.

In both cases I expect a point or two more for 4NT.

[ochinko]

When I ask partner for a ♥ stopper, and then say that I actually don't need one, I am showing a one trick better hand than if I bid NT directly. This means that looking at my cards I see that we're cold for 4NT when I bid 3NT, or cold for 5NT when I bid 4NT.

2NT, then 3NT is my minimal hand (around 6-8 HCP, and no promising suits).

[pkl]

Hi Roland

If you suggest that 4NT is natural, we obviously play different styles after a reverse, but anyway I believe that 3NT should be reserved for the not very slam-oriented positive hand with lots of goodies in the majors - e.g. KQTx KJTx xxx xx.

/Peter

[han]

I play that 2H is the weak bid and 2NT is natural and forcing. Then:

2H followed by 3NT: a good 7 to 9.

direct 3NT: 10-12

2NT followed by 3NT: 10-13 or so but a different hand.

2NT followed by 4NT: 14-16, something like that (again a direct 4NT shows a different hand).

[jdonn]

This is the chain of reasoning to follow. Obviously high card amounts are to be taken with a HUGE grain of salt, they are merely illustrative.

Decide opener's entire range. Let's say 17-21.
Decide the minimum with which responder will force to game opposite this range. Let's say 8.
Decide with which portion (if any) of the top of opener's range he will bid on over 3NT with no extra shape. Let's say 20-21.
Decide how much is needed for slam. Let's say 32.
Thus 4NT by responder shows the amount that would invite slam opposite the remainder of opener's range. So if you accept my amounts, responder needs 13-14 opposite opener's relevant range of 17-19. And opener should bid on over 4NT with the maximum part of the portion of his range which would not have been good enough to bid on over 3NT by responder.

Incidentally, I don't play any path to 3NT as a different range than any other, responder is merely interested in more or different information along the way. It's true that bidding there faster implies less slam suitability within the range, but not a different range.

[Walddk]

I like jdonn's concept.

Scoring: IMP

---

Here are the hands from a Cayne match the other day. I was South, and the auction started ...

1♣ - 1♠
2♦

Now, how would you proceed from there? 6NT by North is not great, but fair. Would you get there, or would you be content with 3NT?

Roland

[jdonn]

Walddk, on Aug 11 2008, 03:20 PM, said:

I like jdonn's concept.

Dealer: South Vul: None Scoring: IMP

♠ AK1074 ♥ AQ95 ♦ 1095 ♣ 8 ♠ 5 ♥ J6 ♦ AKJ3 ♣ AKQ932

Here are the hands from a Cayne match the other day. I was South, and the auction started ...

1♣ - 1♠
2♦

Now, how would you proceed from there? 6NT by North is not great, but fair. Would you get there, or would you be content with 3NT?

Roland

I would think I would like to bid

1♣ 1♠
2♦ 2♠
3♣ 4NT
5NT 6NT

South finds out if north can suggest either minor but north can't. A fine alternative is for south to bid 6♣ instead of 5NT but to me that feels like a seven card suit. Nonetheless north would still pull to 6NT.

Extremely close single dummy whether you would want to be there or not.

[gnasher]

1♣-1♠
2♦-2♠ (1 round force)
3♣-4NT
pass

seems normal

[jonottawa]

Slam is better than 60% so surely you want to be there. Close perhaps, but 'extremely close' might be an overbid.

[jdonn]

jonottawa, on Aug 11 2008, 03:50 PM, said:

Slam is better than 60% so surely you want to be there. Close perhaps, but 'extremely close' might be an overbid.

How do you reach such a high number? Especially when a diamond lead seems so likely, (probably) forcing you to go up and potentially block the suit if a later finesse is needed.

[jonottawa]

Roughly:

38.75% (clubs behave) + ((1/2 (diamond finesse))*45.22% (clubs 4-2 not jt doubleton))=60%+

You can also make with minor miracles if Clubs 5-1 or 6-0 but I left those cases out and still got over 60%.

[jdonn]

jonottawa, on Aug 11 2008, 04:00 PM, said:

Roughly:

38.75% (clubs behave) + ((1/2 (diamond finesse))*45.22% (clubs 4-2 not jt doubleton))=60%+

You can also make with minor miracles if Clubs 5-1 or 6-0 but I left those cases out and still got over 60%.

I'm saying if they lead a diamond you will go up, then if it turns out it was Qxxx(x) onside (not at all unlikely a lead on the auction) you will also need the heart finesse. Also if they win the 4th club and lead a heart through, you really have some problems. But I guess it's a better contract better than I thought. Glad I bid it!

Hmmm maybe I'm misanalyzing since you might want to finesse a diamond opening lead. Ok I'm at work, I give up.

[jonottawa]

If you followed a different line and my line makes, sorry to hear that. Just saying my line is 60% and change. If Pepsi has the queen, unlucky.

[ochinko]

2♥ may be a meaningless bid but at least is saves you from bidding your 5 spades as if they were 6. Forcing or not, I would never rebid my spades, but this, of course, is a matter of style.

[mike777]

Walddk, on Aug 11 2008, 03:20 PM, said:

I like jdonn's concept.

<!-- NORTHSOUTH begin --><table border=1> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td>Dealer:</td> <td> South </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vul:</td> <td> None </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Scoring:</td> <td> IMP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table border='1'> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> AK1074 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> AQ95 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> 1095 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> 8 </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> 5 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> J6 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> AKJ3 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> AKQ932 </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- NORTHSOUTH end -->
Here are the hands from a Cayne match the other day. I was South, and the auction started ...

1♣ - 1♠
2♦

Now, how would you proceed from there? 6NT by North is not great, but fair. Would you get there, or would you be content with 3NT?

Roland

For me:

1c=1s
2d=2h(game force good hand 9-10 hcp+, does not promise hearts.)
is automatic for me.....2s by responser here is weak so not an option.

3c=?


Now I may proceed:

1c=1s
2d=2h
3c=4d!
4h!=4S!
5D!=5s!
6c!=6nt

or perhaps this is better?
1c=1s
2d=2h
3c=3s
4c?=4d! rkc now for clubs
etc.....

4d=rkc for clubs
4h=0-3
4s=Q ask
5d=QC and KD
5s=KS, confirm all keycards. deny KH.
6c=deny KH. strong inference deny QS.(no 5nt bid)

As no doubt many will note I really use rkc alot more than most forum members. Rebidding 4nt natural if I was 100% sure it is quant. and it seems it should be quant. over 3c may be a much better bid here.

[OleBerg]

Hi all,

I am not accustomed to play 2/1, but I'd still expect 2nt to be forcing? (It is in Europe.)

If it is, it's an excellent bid. Now partner can show his exstra club length, without focusing on a heart stopper. This might prompt north to bid 4nt, which south may raise.