[jkdood]

Matchpoints, sectional, red vs w, pass as dealer: (Jxxxx AJTx QJx x)

LHO:p
Pard 1H
RHO: 2NT
3C by you limit raise in hearts (agree?)
LHO: 4C
Pard: 4H, p,p...
LHO: 5C, p,p...

Is Pard's Pass F?
Does it matter?
What action do you take?

Results l8r of course

[gnasher]

Partner could have bid 4♦ over 4♣ to say that he wanted his pass to be forcing. He didn't, so it isn't, but I'd bid 5♥ anyway.

[jkdood]

I chose 3C because I was going to pass a 3H minimum response by Pard (he was third chair.) I'll wait a bit longer before sharing the results.

[gnasher]

As a passed hand, you don't really need two ways to bid spades, so maybe both 3♣ and 3♦ should show heart support. That would allow you to distinguish between 3- and 4-card raises.

[jkdood]

Pard held AQTx KQ98xx x xx

5H is down 1 (spade finesse off) I chose 5H (largely because I thought pard's pass was F but also for Justin's reason) and the opps got lucky with a double, so -200 was a zero

5C is also down 1. I thought pard should double (in a FP sense) but pard thought the pass just said nothing because 4D wasn't bid earlier to set up a FP.

[jonottawa]

I like 4 Clubs but only as a passed hand. Colors mostly offset 3rd seat imo. Hopefully partner isn't insane and has a fair suit if he opened light here.

Not sure why this is a problem. You bid a game on a hook that seems like it rated to win and it lost. Unlucky.

[jkdood]

well you know, 5-level at matchpoints belongs to the opponents, etc etc. Felt real bad like a Moron (M) etc. then again, if Justin made the same call, can't use the "M" word!!

[Trinidad]

As a general rule, passes are forcing after we have forced to game. When we take the push into game (such as here) a pass is non forcing.

I would also have bid 4♣. Your heart holding suggests strongly that partner has a genuine opening and not 'just a third hand opening'. That means that 4♥, at worst, has some play and 4♣ has the advantage that it shows your hand immediately since your first hand pass limits your hand, conveniently leaving (m)any decisions to partner. (And yes, 4♣ creates a forcing pass situation.)

Rik

[MFA]

Trinidad, on Aug 6 2008, 04:10 AM, said:

As a general rule, passes are forcing after we have forced to game. When we take the push into game (such as here) a pass is non forcing.

I would also have bid 4♣. Your heart holding suggests strongly that partner has a genuine opening and not 'just a third hand opening'. That means that 4♥, at worst, has some play and 4♣ has the advantage that it shows your hand immediately since your first hand pass limits your hand, conveniently leaving (m)any decisions to partner. (And yes, 4♣ creates a forcing pass situation.)

Rik

Hmm, why would 4♣ by a passed hand create a force? Wasn't the idea to leave the decision up to partner? Also, it's not nice to partner, who might be a little light in 3rd seat, even vul. vs not, to punish him with the dreaded "choice of 800's" .

[jkdood]

I did in fact bid 3C at the table (rather than 4C) because there are so many 11-counts with KQxxx of H where choosing 4C defeats an attempt at the desirable plus score at matchpoints goal...

...even something like KQx KQxxx xxx Kx (13 hcp) can go -800 vs. only +130 if RHO has maybe x xx AKxxx QJTxx

BUT the original main posing: once I selected 3C and LHO (passed hand) bid only 4c and pard bid 4H (red vs white)< when LHO now balanced/reopened with 5C, isn't that the so-called obvious sacrfice that creates a FP when we had freely bid a red vs white game?

[Trinidad]

MFA, on Aug 6 2008, 06:33 AM, said:

Trinidad, on Aug 6 2008, 04:10 AM, said:

As a general rule, passes are forcing after we have forced to game. When we take the push into game (such as here) a pass is non forcing.

I would also have bid 4♣. Your heart holding suggests strongly that partner has a genuine opening and not 'just a third hand opening'. That means that 4♥, at worst, has some play and 4♣ has the advantage that it shows your hand immediately since your first hand pass limits your hand, conveniently leaving (m)any decisions to partner. (And yes, 4♣ creates a forcing pass situation.)

Rik

Hmm, why would 4♣ by a passed hand create a force? Wasn't the idea to leave the decision up to partner? Also, it's not nice to partner, who might be a little light in 3rd seat, even vul. vs not, to punish him with the dreaded "choice of 800's" .

Simple answer:

Quote

As a general rule, passes are forcing after we have forced to game.

I am not claiming that you can't make a case for playing pass in this situation as non forcing (you can). But I want to keep my agreements simple and clear. Since you can make a case for pass to be forcing or non forcing, follow the general rule (rather than making up a rule at the table). This makes it possible for opener to invite slam. Practically speaking he would ask whether you hold a minimum hand (like the actual hand) or a maximum (2 aces, a club void, five trumps, etc.).

Obviously, the passed hand cannot make a forcing pass unless opener shows extra's. So (as an example) if the auction started:

Pass-Pass-1♥-2NT
4♣-Dbl-4♥-5♣
Pass-Pass-

This can be passed out (i.e. the pass in bold is not forcing). But that is because there is a rule that outranks the above forcing pass rule:
A natural bid by a passed hand is never forcing, unless his partner has shown extra's.

Rik

[Trinidad]

jkdood, on Aug 6 2008, 09:46 AM, said:

BUT the original main posing: once I selected 3C and LHO (passed hand) bid only 4c and pard bid 4H (red vs white)< when LHO now balanced/reopened with 5C, isn't that the so-called obvious sacrfice that creates a FP when we had freely bid a red vs white game?

You don't know whether the game was freely bid. Partner may have taken the push to 4♥ (meaning that he might have signed off in 3♥ if the opponents would have let him).

Or to put it otherwise: Partner's 4♥ bid can mean that he wanted to bid 3♥ but was willing to compete to 4♥. It can also mean that he accepted your game invitation and would have always bid 4♥. Since the opponents already bid 4♣, partner didn't have the possibility to distinguish between a voluntary 4♥ bid and a competitive 4♥ bid.

Rik

[jkdood]

Red vs white at matchpoints, "Partner may have taken the push to 4♥" seems to be an expectation of making (against opps who understand doubling and +200) -Perhaps my major error (if I made one when I bid 5H) is considering this to be "voluntary" so-to-speak rather than "competitive". Is that what everyone else thinks too?

[MFA]

Trinidad, on Aug 6 2008, 02:03 PM, said:

MFA, on Aug 6 2008, 06:33 AM, said:

Trinidad, on Aug 6 2008, 04:10 AM, said:

As a general rule, passes are forcing after we have forced to game. When we take the push into game (such as here) a pass is non forcing.

I would also have bid 4♣. Your heart holding suggests strongly that partner has a genuine opening and not 'just a third hand opening'. That means that 4♥, at worst, has some play and 4♣ has the advantage that it shows your hand immediately since your first hand pass limits your hand, conveniently leaving (m)any decisions to partner. (And yes, 4♣ creates a forcing pass situation.)

Rik

Hmm, why would 4♣ by a passed hand create a force? Wasn't the idea to leave the decision up to partner? Also, it's not nice to partner, who might be a little light in 3rd seat, even vul. vs not, to punish him with the dreaded "choice of 800's" .

Simple answer:

Quote

As a general rule, passes are forcing after we have forced to game.

I am not claiming that you can't make a case for playing pass in this situation as non forcing (you can). But I want to keep my agreements simple and clear. Since you can make a case for pass to be forcing or non forcing, follow the general rule (rather than making up a rule at the table). This makes it possible for opener to invite slam. Practically speaking he would ask whether you hold a minimum hand (like the actual hand) or a maximum (2 aces, a club void, five trumps, etc.).

Obviously, the passed hand cannot make a forcing pass unless opener shows extra's. So (as an example) if the auction started:

Pass-Pass-1♥-2NT
4♣-Dbl-4♥-5♣
Pass-Pass-

This can be passed out (i.e. the pass in bold is not forcing). But that is because there is a rule that outranks the above forcing pass rule:
A natural bid by a passed hand is never forcing, unless his partner has shown extra's.

Rik

Ok. It's nice to have some clear agreements.
And at least it seems we survive 50% of the time (when we can pass first ).

Btw, why don't your rules combine?
As a general rule, passes are forcing after we have forced to game.
A natural bid by a passed hand is never forcing, unless his partner has shown extra's.

=> A passed hand cannot create a forcing pass situation by his own power?

Or you can put it differently. I don't consider 4♣ from a passed hand as a "force to game", just as a game bid with a singleton club!

As you might have guessed, you touched me on the raw here . I much prefer a style, where the use of forcing passes is held at an absolute minimum (which, btw, doesn't seem to create much ambiguity in my partnership). Holding (20)21-23 combined hcp is generally no excuse for establishing that it must be our board - no escapes possible!

[MFA]

jkdood, on Aug 6 2008, 03:47 PM, said:

Red vs white at matchpoints, "Partner may have taken the push to 4♥" seems to be an expectation of making (against opps who understand doubling and +200) -Perhaps my major error (if I made one when I bid 5H) is considering this to be "voluntary" so-to-speak rather than "competitive". Is that what everyone else thinks too?

Yes, "might have taken the push" is how I view it. The whole thing is, from my perspective, that one should be allowed to just bid game if one feels like it, without being punished later by forcing passes or overaggressive partners. But surely there must be some hope of making the contract .

Bidding 5♥ with your hand was certainly reasonable, although not clear-cut.

[gnasher]

A "freely bid game" is a game that we bid instead of choosing to play the hand at a lower level. On this auction, we couldn't have played in 3♥, so 4♥ was not freely bid.

Sometimes a pass is forcing because the auction tells us that the opponents are sacrificing. Usually this is when, as in this auction, one opponent decides to stop in a partscore, but then bids again once we have bid game.

Some people (not me) play that bidding a game at adverse sets up a forcing pass.

However, neither of these rules should take priority over this one: if a player declined an opportunity to set up a forcing pass in an auction where it was likely that the opponents would sacrifice, he can't then make a forcing pass. Opener could have bid 4♦ to say "if they save, pass is forcing". He didn't, so it isn't.