[jillybean]

Playing 15-17 1nt one of my partners likes to play;

3♥ invitational with 5♥5♠
3♠ game forcing with 5♥5♠

How do the experts handle these hands?

[david_c]

Normally:

- With a game force: transfer to spades and then bid 3♥;
- With an invitational hand: start with Stayman; if partner bids 2♦ then you now bid 2♠ (invitational).

If you do use 1NT : 3♠ as both majors, then it's fairly common to play that opener can now bid 4♣ to show a good hand for hearts, or 4♦ to show a good hand for spades.

[cherdano]

What david said. Your 3♠ bid seems unnecessary in a standard system. 1N 2H 2S 3H shows 5=5, since with just 5 spades and 4 hearts, you would start with stayman (then 3S over 2D, or 3H if playing Smolen).

[mikeh]

what cherdano said, with the qualifer that not everyone plays smolen and now the 3♠ treatment removes ambiguity from the sequence of transfer to spades then 3♥.

I like the treatment (I don't play it in any of my serious partnerships because we use more complex and/or fundamentally different methods, but I use it with several friends and with my wife) because it allows opener to immediately evaluate.... and he can show enthusiasm right away... note, however, that the use of 4♣ and 4♦ as artificial suit preference does mean that cue-bids may be starting uncomfortably high.. this cost is offset, to some degree, by responder knowing that opener has a slam-suitable hand...ie opener has few hcp in Qs and Js in the minor, a 4 card fit in the preferred major and a useful holding in the other major (ie not something like Jxx.. more like Kx or AQx etc)

[TylerE]

A popular system in these parts is:

3♣ - 5/5 Minors Wk
3♦ - 5/5 Minors GF
3♥ - 5/5 Majors Wk
3♠ - 5/5 Majors GF

This is an expanded version of what OP described, and I find it very playable. maybe not the best uses for the bids, but playable, and good if you're not ready for more advanced NT gadgetry.

[blackshoe]

There's a lot to be said for playing methods with which your partnership is comfortable, but there's other considerations. As Cherdano points out, logically 1NT-2♥-2♠-3♥ has to show 5-5 in the majors. I would think it must show invitational strength, as well. Opener can pass to play in the ♥ part score, or bid 3♠ to play there. He can bid 3NT, 4♥ or 4♠ to play in whichever game he likes. That, I think, is why the structure Tyler proposed is used - it covers weak, invitational, and game forcing hands with 5-5 in the majors. I suppose one might argue that a 5-5 "invitational values" hand opposite a strong NT opener ought willy-nilly to be in game somewhere, but I dunno.

Questions:

What do 1NT-2♦-2♥-2♠ and 1NT-2♦-2♥-3♠ show?

What about 1NT-2♦-2♥-4♠ and 1NT-2♥-2♠-4♥?

[jillybean]

This was a little ironic, my partner this weekend suggested we play these 3♥/3♠ treatments over 1nt and I happily agreed, thinking it was unlikely to come up anyway.
In the first round I picked up a nice 5521 12-count hand, partner opens 1nt so it goes

1N:3♠*
4♠:

Impossible now to bid on, and maybe we shouldn’t or couldn’t have found the slam but the methods certainly didn’t help.

[blackshoe]

Perhaps your methods should include some action other than immediate game in spades, if opener can envision any possibility of a slam (and he probably can). Or perhaps you need some other method which would show a slam invitational two suiter. Or maybe there are just too many hand types, and you just have to live with it.

[Quantumcat]

This is the whole point of playing transfers!!! You can show more hands and stay lower. Transferring and bidding a suit shows 54 and is gameforcing. Having to jump a level is a waste of space.

[jillybean]

blackshoe, on Jul 28 2008, 02:43 PM, said:

Questions:

What do 1NT-2♦-2♥-2♠

This should show 5/5 inviational perhaps

blackshoe, on Jul 28 2008, 02:43 PM, said:

1NT-2♦-2♥-3♠ show?

Splinter

blackshoe, on Jul 28 2008, 02:43 PM, said:

What about 1NT-2♦-2♥-4♠ and 1NT-2♥-2♠-4♥?

Super splinter?

[jillybean]

david_c, on Jul 28 2008, 08:49 AM, said:

Normally:

- With an invitational hand: start with Stayman; if partner bids 2♦ then you now bid 2♠ (invitational).

How do you show 5♠ 4♥ invitational?

[Quantumcat]

First shows 5 hearts and 4 spades and is forcing. 2nd I agree is splinter. I don't know about the 3rd. 1NT 2H 2S 4H is the same as 1NT 2D 2H 3S. I don't know about 1NT 2D 2H 4S.

[Quantumcat]

jillybean2, on Jul 29 2008, 10:40 AM, said:

david_c, on Jul 28 2008, 08:49 AM, said:

Normally:

- With an invitational hand: start with Stayman; if partner bids 2♦ then you now bid 2♠ (invitational).

How do you show 5♠ 4♥ invitational?

I think that was the invitational 5S 4H? 2H perhaps would be the 5H 4S.

[jillybean]

Quantumcat, on Jul 28 2008, 05:44 PM, said:

jillybean2, on Jul 29 2008, 10:40 AM, said:

david_c, on Jul 28 2008, 08:49 AM, said:

Normally:

- With an invitational hand: start with Stayman; if partner bids 2♦ then you now bid 2♠ (invitational).

How do you show 5♠ 4♥ invitational?

I think that was the invitational 5S 4H? 2H perhaps would be the 5H 4S.

Davids response was in reply to my original question;

"3♥ invitational with 5♥5♠
3♠ game forcing with 5♥5♠

How do the experts handle these hands?"

I understood with 5/4 4/5 hands you start out with stayman and bid the 5M if partner denies a 4M, it doesnt show both 5cM

maybe Im getting my wires crossed

[kenrexford]

The methods I use seem particularly good.

1NT-P-3♦ shows a major two-suiter, with invitational or beter values. Opener can bid a major at the three-level to decline game (not necessarily a true fit), after which Responder can still make moves if so inclined (typically by bidding a stiff or bidding 3NT as appropriate). If Opener has acceptance value but non-slammish (whatever that means to you), he bids 4M (or possibly 3NT on rare occasion). With slam interest, meaning MAX, he bids 4♣ for hearts or 4♦ for spades.

1NT-P-3M is 31/13 in majors (debate over which is best to bid, shortness or fragment) with 54/45 in minors, of some agreed range.

1NT-P-3♣ is Puppet. Can sexify the Puppet as desired.

Stayman, with Smolen and Other-Major slam tries (e.g., 1NT-P-2♣-P-2M-P-3OM agrees major and forces game, extras). Stayman...2♠ is invitational with five spades, typically unbalanced.

Transfer to hearts and then 2♠ is invitational. Transfer to hearts then 3♠ is splinter (solo).

Transfer to spades and then 4♥ is splinter.

With five spades, four hearts, invitational, Responder can bid Stayman and then 2♠ over 2♦.

A transfer to spades and then 3♥ is a slam move, artificial.

This suffers one problem of handling 4-4 in the majors for Opener but Responder only spades and only four of them. If this is too much of a problem, then revert to the normal stayman sequence, giving up that 3♥ rebid after a spade transfer, instead making that 5-4 invitational.

[andy_h]

One way to play it is:

5+M 4oM GF = Smolen

5S 4+H INV = Stayman then bid 2S (over partner's 2D. Otherwise you can invite/game if partner has a fit)
5S 4H To Play = Transfer to 2S (have to give stayman up)

5H 4S INV = 2D transfer then 2S
5H 4S To play = Stayman then 2H

5S 5H GF = Transfer via 2H then bid 3H
5S 5H INV = Stayman then bid 2S

This keeps the options of 1NT-3M being singleton in the M bid, 3cards in the other major and 5/4 either way in the minors GF. 1NT-3S = 1-3-(54), 1NT-3H = 3-1-(54)

Another method you may employ is 1NT-3x:

3C = 5/5 minors INV
3D = 5/5 minors GF
3H = 5/5 Majors INV
3S = 5/5 Majors GF

[jtfanclub]

I'm a simple man...some would say too simple.

3♣: either transfer to diamonds (if you need it) or Gerber (playing at 3NT instead of 4 is good!)
3♦: Slam transfer to Hearts
3♥: Slam transfer to Spades
3♠: Slam transfer to NT. Usually replaces 4NT.

For 3♦/3♥: Accept transfer with minimum and 3 pieces*, Bid 3NT with a minimum and 2 pieces, and bid game with a minimum and 4 pieces. Otherwise, cue bid. How you define minimum is up to you.

*You can accept and then correct 3NT to game in the major if you think it'll play better in the major.

[jillybean]

jtfanclub, on Jul 28 2008, 09:46 PM, said:

I'm a simple man...some would say too simple.

3♣: either transfer to diamonds (if you need it) or Gerber (playing at 3NT instead of 4 is good!)
3♦: Slam transfer to Hearts
3♥: Slam transfer to Spades
3♠: Slam transfer to NT. Usually replaces 4NT.

For 3♦/3♥: Accept transfer with minimum and 3 pieces*, Bid 3NT with a minimum and 2 pieces, and bid game with a minimum and 4 pieces. Otherwise, cue bid. How you define minimum is up to you.

*You can accept and then correct 3NT to game in the major if you think it'll play better in the major.

Thats nice but what do you do with 5521 hands?

[blackshoe]

I think I need to go reread Danny Kleinman's book on NT bidding. All I can remember about it is he didn't think much of "standard methods" and had a lot of suggestions for (rather esoteric, as I recall) "improvements".

I like the Romex approach. There's a chapter in one of the Romex books titled "Surviving Without the Strong NT - Or Indeed Any NT At All".

[david_c]

jillybean2, on Jul 29 2008, 01:40 AM, said:

david_c, on Jul 28 2008, 08:49 AM, said:

Normally:

- With an invitational hand: start with Stayman; if partner bids 2♦ then you now bid 2♠ (invitational).

How do you show 5♠ 4♥ invitational?

The same way. 1NT : 2♣ , 2♦ : 2♠ just shows 5 spades and an invitational hand. Could be four hearts, could be more (and some people play that it doesn't promise hearts at all). So when you have a 5-5 you may play in 2♠ on a 5-2 fit when you had a 5-3 fit in hearts available. However that is the (small) price you pay for being able to stop at the 2-level.

If you do have 5-5 and the bidding goes 1NT : 2♣ , 2♦ : 2♠ , 2NT, now you can bid 3♥ to show the 5-5 shape.