[dbsboy]

In order to show a FG hand, a fake jump shift is always used, showing a 3 card suit.

But then I cannot find out much information about developments after Jump Shift.


Question 1: If we have a 6 card Suit and 3 card Partner's Suit Support, which one should we bid? Can we show both?

Question 2: I know that 1M-1N-3m-3M can be made even with 2 cards, what criteria is needed to make a 2 card preference? or to bid 3NT?

Question 3: How do we bid after 1M-1N-3m-3M? say, 1S-1N-3H-3S?

[the hog]

dbsboy, on Jul 24 2008, 02:19 PM, said:

In order to show a FG hand, a fake jump shift is always used, showing a 3 card suit.

No its not. Some players do this, but it leads to all sorts of problems later in the bidding.

Question 1: If we have a 6 card Suit and 3 card Partner's Suit Support, which one should we bid? Can we show both?

Question 2: I know that 1M-1N-3m-3M can be made even with 2 cards, what criteria is needed to make a 2 card preference? or to bid 3NT?

Re qun 1, I guess you are referring to the hand of death. A good 6 carder and 3 card support for partner. Well, you can play artificial methods to show both, but this is the BI forum, so I won't go into that.

Re qun 2. Whoever taught you that taught you badly. I have seen some players make a jump shift n 3 cards and many on this forum will tell you that is ok. personally I hate bidding non existent suits. However I doubt anyone will tell you its ok to do it on a doubleton.

[dbsboy]

The 2 card thing is to 'make a preference to partner's Major suit', so I think you misunderstood what I said.

Do we make a 2 card preference? or rebid our 5 card suit? or support partner's minor (may be fake) with 4 cards? Which one takes priority?

Last time I held ♠KQX ♥KQJTXX ♦X ♣AKX
I opened 1H and was delighted by p's 1S.

I jumped to 3C (was this correct?) but was stuck after partner raised me to 4C.


btw, I posted this on the B/I forum because Experts will make mocks of this post. There must be a standard solution to this, but I just dont know how to find it.

[helene_t]

If responder has no clear direction he will often make the cheapest bid. So in your auction
1♥-1♠
3♣-?
responder would probably use the fourth suit forcing (3♦) with two-card support and/or a 5-card spades. On the other hand, over
1♥-1♠
3♦-?
responder will bid 3♥ on a doubleton very often.

This is just my personal opinion, I am sure many will disagree.

After
1♥-1♠
3♣-4♣
it would be nice if 4♦ was choice-of-game now but partner will take it as a cue for clubs. I would try 4♥ now. Partner probably has 4135 or something like that so 4♥ is likely to be the best contract. Your failure to rebid 4♥ tells him that with 4036 he must correct to 5♣ (or try for 6♣).

[matmat]

dbsboy, on Jul 24 2008, 03:02 AM, said:

Last time I held ♠KQX ♥KQJTXX ♦X ♣AKX
I opened 1H and was delighted by p's 1S.

I jumped to 3C (was this correct?) but was stuck after partner raised me to 4C.

It looks more like a jump to 3♥ to me.

[andy_h]

Agree that after opener jump-shifts, responder will be giving "false preference" most of the time. Sometimes he just has to do that, or if he bids the 4th suit he might just want to hear more about opener's shape (but lacking the hand to support in 1 of opener's suit after the jump shift).

That example hand you gave, after 1H-1S, I think 3C is a good bid. If partner might want to find out about a possible spade contract he can still bid 3D over 3C. But after he raises you to 4C, 4H bid by you should definitely be natural, a suggestion to play. This is how you show a game forcing hand, in that the 3C may just be used as a tool to set up a GF auction. If partner doesn't understand much of these jump-shift sequences (like the 4H a suggestion to play) then I might just bid 4H over 3S. But then again, if I don't jump shift to 3C partner will have to experience that type of auction sooner or later so I guess it's better sooner than later!

[cherdano]

1. With 6-card support, I think you just have to raise. If the hand is so weak that slam is out of the question, maybe I would give a preference, but usually I would raise.

2. A preference is a cheap bid and should be made often, given opener room to describe his hand. A 3N rebid by responder should be a strong statement since it takes away a lot of room from opener to finish describing his hand. You should have a good stopper in both suits (and not much in partners' suits, otherwise you would have slam interest), and for example you shouldn't be interested in hearing another bid if partner is 5-5.

3. After 1M 1N 3m 3M, opener should finish describing his hand. With a 5-5 you would rebid the second suit, with a 6-card major you would raise, with 5431 bid out your shape. With 5422 you try to bid 3N - if you you don't have a stopper in one of the side suits than hopefully your 5-card suit is good enough to play 4M (or otherwise maybe you shouldn't have bid 3m).


In you 3613 example hand, you should rebid 4♥. This is not a cuebid, it says that you have very good hearts and you suggest playing there, and implies that the clubs may be fake.

[dbsboy]

ok. Thanks for all the replies. It makes these bids much clearer now :-)

[benlessard]

Ive already written this somewhere ...

Im quite fond of fake jump-shifts (even in 3/2 cards majors). They usually are the cheapest forcing bid available so it make sense to used them to the maximum. However you need some common sense agreement to not go ashtray.

When to make JS in a fragment (for me 2 card is acceptable)
1-GF 3 cards raises (are the more frequent). Its clear that returning to partner suit at the cheapest level and at the first opportunity show a 3cards support and show that your reverse might be fake.
2- Long solid suits too strong for not making a GF bid. Ax,xx,AKQJT9x,xx
1D---1H-----??? IMO the correct bid is 2S.

3- balance hand with 6 cards suit and a wide open doubleton.
1m-----1H------???
some prefer to bid 2Nt with xx in the other minor or to rebid 3D with a so-so suit. But for me I much prefet to bid 2S (if i have a S stopper of course)

For the follow-up on a possibly fake reverse is that any bypass of 3Nt is showing a raise or tolerance in partner 1st suit, just a fit in the 2nd suit isnt enough.

1D-----1S
3C-----???

3D im stuck, no h stoppers or fit in clubs without D tol
3H nat
3S nat
3Nt nat
4C clubs+ D tolerance

1S-----1Nt
3D-----???

3H im stuck
3S = H
3Nt nat
4C+= D fit +S tol

1D------1S
2H------4H

4H should show 4H a D fit and a minimum hand.

1D------1S
2H------3H

3H show 4H
either maximum or with no D tolerance.


Playing standard method bypassing 3Nt without tol support for partner 1st suit will often lead to terrible results.

[benlessard]

1H-----1S
3C-----???

3D im stuck
3H fit for you
3S good spades
3Nt D stopper not fit
4C club fit H tolerance (short in d)
4D splinter great hand (again club fit and tolerance in H)

1H------1S
3C------3D (im stuck)
???

3H i have 6 H and a club stopper tend to deny 3S. (maybe balanced 2524 or 2623 is possible)
3S I have 3 card support.
3Nt i have stopper in diamonds (1633 or similar shapes)
4C at least 5H/5C
4D powerhouse H with D shortness.
4H if you dont play namyats its just good hand with long H. (too strong for 1H----1S-----4H) but if you dont then probably its can show 3S---6H but with very good hearts.

With a setup like this you will rarely have problems.

[Quantumcat]

This is how I understood auctions like this:

I always thought rebidding your suit (as responder) showed absolute crap and you really don't want to hear any more, while fake preference was for when you don't mind too much hearing some more. 4th suit forcing was for when you were quite happy to hear some more and didn't have something else to describe your hand. And NT was for limiting your hand, when you had the 4th suit half stopped, and would be up to about 6 or 7 pts (if a normal reverse, 16+7=23 for 2NT, if 3 level forcing to game, 18-19 + 7 = 25-26 for 3NT). Raising opener's 2nd suit showed something very shapey, but not able to splinter (shortage in opener's first suit for example).

e.g.
1H 1S 3C 3S = Axxxxxx x xxx xx
1H 1S 3C 3NT = KJxxx xx QTx xxx
1H 1S 3C 3D = KJxxx xx Qx KQxx
1H 1S 3C 3H = KJxxx xx Qxx Kxx
1H 1S 3C 4C = KJxxxx - xxx KQxxx

is this ok or is it completely wrong?

[awm]

A few things here:

(1) It is often good to "stall" after the jump shift in order to give opener time to clarify his hand. Typically the stall bid is the cheapest of the fourth suit and preference to opener's suit. Nominally the preference shows doubleton, but I have seen good players bid this on singleton before and survive the auction.

(2) Rebidding responder's suit is natural and shows a decent long suit. This is definitely at least six cards. It is not necessarily a "bad hand" though; I would certainly rebid 3♠ over 1♥-1♠-3♣ on a wide range of hands including both ♠KQTxxx ♥x ♦xxx ♣xxx and ♠AQJTxxx ♥x ♦Axx ♣xx.

(3) Raising opener's second suit if a minor usually shows five card support. There are exceptions for slam interested hands with no other sensible bid (i.e. 1♥-1♠-3♦ with 4144 and good values).

(4) Bidding 3NT should show fairly minimum values, focused in responder's suit and the fourth suit.

(5) It is difficult to show hands with a primary fit for opener's first suit. The "standard" way to do this seems to be by jumping to four of opener's major (for example 1♠-1NT(F)-3♣-4♠ shows the three card limit raise). This takes up a lot of space on what can potentially be a slam auction, so some established pairs look for ways around this jump.

[Quantumcat]

It should make sense that rebidding your suit should be a bad hand. Often you will reply without the full 5 points because you have an interesting hand. If opener has a minimum for his GF, how else are you going to stay out of game?

Would you respond 1S after 1H with QJTxxxx - xxxx xx? Or pass? Surely you would respond?

[awm]

Quantumcat, on Jul 30 2008, 03:03 AM, said:

If opener has a minimum for his GF, how else are you going to stay out of game?

When opener has a game force, I do not stay out of game. Certainly I do not have agreements that some follow-up to a game forcing call is not forcing. If you have such an agreement (1♥-1♠-3♣-3♠ NF) then you should be alerting the 3♣ call as "shows extras but not game forcing" -- a game forcing call is forcing to game!

With that said, I am sure you can give hands where many players will respond to an opening with less than 5-6 hcp. Your options with such hands after partner forces game are:

(1) Pretend you have a normal minimum of 5-6 hcp and hope for the best.
(2) Pass opener's forcing rebid.

You should not / cannot have a call which announces that you have less than responding values and asks opener to pass despite game forcing strength.

On the given hand I would rebid 4♠, which shows a minimum with seven decent spades, no interest in other strains, and nothing else worth mentioning. Admittedly this is normally more like KQT9xxx and out, but you're right that I would not have passed 1♥ on the example hand of QJTxxxx and out either.