[jillybean]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     1♠    Pass
 2♠    Pass  Pass  3♣
 3♠    4♣    4♠    Pass
 Pass  5♣    Dbl   Pass
 Pass  Pass  

Do you think North should have acted over 2♠ or5♣ over 3♠?

[awm]

South 3♣ = this is a good time to bid 2NT "two suited takeout", note that 2NT cannot be natural because south could not bid 1NT over 1♠, this would get N/S to hearts in case north's round suits were reversed

North 4♣ = this is fine; N/S unlikely to have game with south not good enough to bid 2♣ over 1♠

East 4♠ = crazy; what about a flat hand with a wasted club king says "bid 4♠"?

North 5♣ = quite bad; ♠KJx opposite shortage is a terrible holding, and this hand is very balanced and has a lot of values none of which are in clubs; opponents have bid to 4♠ on a ridiculous auction and double is definitely called for here rather than 5♣.

[mikeh]

It is tough to criticize the result I think it takes a diamond lead to beat it.. I don't think that a heart lead and diamond switch is quite enough unless East is foolish enough to play the club K on the 1st round of trump.

I think that both N and S bid normally the first round... micheals by S on the 1st round doesn't appeal to me with that hand.. I might, but probably wouldn't, do it white v red, but I wouldn't dream of it at this vulnerability. North has no reason to bid and no descriptive bid over 2♠.

Personally, as South, I'd have reopened with 2N as any 2-suiter..pulling 3♦ to 3♥... if I chose to reopen, and I think that I would... partner will have some values, even tho he is marked with spade length.

North has a wonderful hand, but he doesn't have any reason to think that his K of spades is worth much and partner is balancing, so I think that 4♣ is enough.

East is insane... Kx of clubs.. now, since S did not overcall 2♣, it isn't 100% that this holding is useless, but it is no longer worth what it was worth when he opened, and he cannot know that partner has a stiff.

4♠ is bad not because, as it happens, 5♣ probably makes, but because there is almost no hand consistent with the auction on which 4♠ is good. 4♠ is taking the fight for the partscore, which was the fight that west was waging, to a silly level.

I don't like 5♣. I see the temptation.. it is always an ugly feeling to balance the opps into game and see them make it, and now N is feeling that his KJx of trump may be worthless. But bidding red v white as a save is a very delicate decision, and he has no reason to think that 5♣ is making... if he felt that, maybe he should have bid it over 3♠.. which is when he got the strongest clue that partner had a stiff spade.

[vuroth]

South: Bid ok - showing a 2 suiter would have been better, but no harm in this case.
West: Bid perfectly.
North: Fine up to 4 clubs. Really, needed to punish 4 spades.
East: So, your hand is too weak to invite game over 2♠, but strong enough to play game after partner competed, and strong enough to beat 5♣ defensively? Really?

East had, I think, perfectly described her hand after passing 2♠. Bidding 4♠ with 5 spades and 12-14 points HAS to be wrong because, if it's right, partner will do it - since they already know that that's what you have.

0.02

V

[jillybean]

No complaints about the result

I couldn't resist doing something over 4♠, double or 5♣ and I wasn't sure we'd set 4♠.

[han]

South should definitely bid 2NT. I can't find myself in mikeh soft "if I chose to reopen, and I think that I would..." because I think that reopening is absolutely normal.

Agree with north's initial pass and then 4C. The 5C bid is wrong imo, and I think north knew it because of the 4C bid initially. The 4S call really didn't make the hand better or more offensive.

[mikeh]

han, on Jul 16 2008, 01:16 PM, said:

South should definitely bid 2NT. I can't find myself in mikeh soft "if I chose to reopen, and I think that I would..." because I think that reopening is absolutely normal.

Agree with north's initial pass and then 4C. The 5C bid is wrong imo, and I think north knew it because of the 4C bid initially. The 4S call really didn't make the hand better or more offensive.

I agree that reopening is normal, but it is very risky at this heat at imps. There is a great risk that partner will have something like Jxxx Kx Kxxxx xx on this type of auction and we are not going to like the play in 3♥ doubled... and this is the type of auction (2N then correct 3♦ to 3♥) on which opps double partscores more often than usual. -500 or even 800 against 110 or 140 is not a good outcome.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 pass by North over 2S is fine.
#2 3C by South is fine as well, maybe 2NT is better,
as long as it is agreed as an arbitary 2-suiter, but
dont try it out without discussion.
#3 North should pass over 3S, 4C is a ... bid, never
defend with a partial on the 4 level against a partial
on the 3 level.
Keep in mind South did not overcall 2C the round before,
in South has a super max. for his call, I agree with pass
the round before, but would not need the Ace of spades for
the reopening bid.
#4 while 4C may fetch some sympthie, I did not check
the oher posts .-), 5C is simply asking for it.
You have good defense against 4S, it will go down,
remember they wanted to play 2S only.
If you want to bid double.
Of course double is punsihing partner for reopeing the
bidding, may or may not have worked this time.
You also see the disadv. of 4C, you dont know, if 4S
was bid with the intention to make (south thinking there
is no club wastage), you have to guess, always ugly.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jtfanclub]

P_Marlowe, on Jul 16 2008, 02:24 PM, said:

#3 North should pass over 3S, 4C is a ... bid, never
defend with a partial on the 4 level against a partial
on the 3 level.

That's ...

I know you're trying to spoon feed beginners, but still, don't you think 90% of good players would bid 4♣ with this hand? And I mean GOOD good players.

I would bid 4♣, and I would know that I'm going to X 4♠ before I bid 4♣.

[vuroth]

jtfanclub, on Jul 16 2008, 03:37 PM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Jul 16 2008, 02:24 PM, said:

#3 North should pass over 3S, 4C is a ... bid, never
    defend with a partial on the 4 level against a partial
    on the 3 level.

That's ...

I know you're trying to spoon feed beginners, but still, don't you think 90% of good players would bid 4♣ with this hand? And I mean GOOD good players.

I would bid 4♣, and I would know that I'm going to X 4♠ before I bid 4♣.

That's the rule I learned - if you're going to compete to the 4 level, decide BEFORE you bid 4Y whether you're doubling or saving over 4M, because you ain't passing.

[P_Marlowe]

jtfanclub, on Jul 16 2008, 03:37 PM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Jul 16 2008, 02:24 PM, said:

#3 North should pass over 3S, 4C is a ... bid, never
     defend with a partial on the 4 level against a partial
     on the 3 level.

That's ...

I know you're trying to spoon feed beginners, but still, don't you think 90% of good players would bid 4♣ with this hand? And I mean GOOD good players.

I would bid 4♣, and I would know that I'm going to X 4♠ before I bid 4♣.

Maybe, but I would pass, ... most of the time, may tell
you also something.

The question of course is, what do you want to achieve
and what do you expect a 3C bid to look like, and for that
matter what a 2C overcall looks like.
I have to admit, I have overlooked the fact that NS were
red, which changes the equation a little bit, since. the 3C
bid cant be as weak as I originally thought, but ...

If you bid over 3S, whats your intention:
Do you want to invite opposite a guy, who could not overcall 2C?
And after they bid 4S you are guessing, did you just drive them
into a making game, do you need to defend or do you need to
sacrifice.

The auction could have ended in 2S and 3S, i.e. +/- 100, and now
we are talking about +/ -?00

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: The advice I gave, is an advice given by Ron Klinger, maybe he
would bid with the given hand, but that does not make the advice
bad advice.

[jtfanclub]

P_Marlowe, on Jul 16 2008, 04:08 PM, said:

I have to admit, I have overlooked the fact that NS were
red, which changes the equation a little bit, since. the 3C
bid cant be as weak as I originally thought, but ...

If you bid over 3S, whats your intention:

It does make a big difference, the vulnerability. If partner's willing to play 3♣ vulnerable even though I might have a singleton club, I figure he ought to be willing to play 4♣ across a 5 card suit!

The rule I've drilled into some careless partners is: Know what you're going to do over 4 of a major before you bid 4 of a minor. Unless you're certain that you're bidding 5 or setting it, don't bid it!

I haven't read the Ron Klinger source you're citing, so I don't have an opinion on it. But I value it about as much as "the five level belongs to the opponents". :-)

[analysismi]

jtfanclub, on Jul 16 2008, 03:37 PM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Jul 16 2008, 02:24 PM, said:

#3 North should pass over 3S, 4C is a ... bid, never
    defend with a partial on the 4 level against a partial
    on the 3 level.

That's ...

I know you're trying to spoon feed beginners, but still, don't you think 90% of good players would bid 4♣ with this hand? And I mean GOOD good players.

I would bid 4♣, and I would know that I'm going to X 4♠ before I bid 4♣.

I agree. They were going to pass out 2S, their bidding already told you 4S is not making for them. You have a 10 card suit, plop down 4C (competing to a 10 trick contract) and rest your hand on the double card.

[jillybean]

Ok we’ve seen how not to bid to 5♣ here. In a expert normal auction , how should it proceed?

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     1♠    Pass
 2♠    Pass  Pass  2nt*
 Pass   3♣   Pass ? 

[jtfanclub]

jillybean2, on Jul 16 2008, 10:16 PM, said:

Ok we’ve seen how not to bid to 5♣ here. In a expert normal auction , how should it proceed?

Pass pass.

Or 3♠ over 2NT, then 4♣ pass pass pass.

[cherdano]

After South bids 2N, West should bid 3♠, which will get passed out. (Of course North can't bid 4♣ since partner likely has the red suits.)

[han]

mikeh, on Jul 16 2008, 02:05 PM, said:

han, on Jul 16 2008, 01:16 PM, said:

South should definitely bid 2NT. I can't find myself in mikeh soft "if I chose to reopen, and I think that I would..." because I think that reopening is absolutely normal.

Agree with north's initial pass and then 4C. The 5C bid is wrong imo, and I think north knew it because of the 4C bid initially. The 4S call really didn't make the hand better or more offensive.

I agree that reopening is normal, but it is very risky at this heat at imps. There is a great risk that partner will have something like Jxxx Kx Kxxxx xx on this type of auction and we are not going to like the play in 3♥ doubled... and this is the type of auction (2N then correct 3♦ to 3♥) on which opps double partscores more often than usual. -500 or even 800 against 110 or 140 is not a good outcome.

I am not sure what you are trying to say. It is clear bidding over 2S can work out very badly. But I think that balancing is an absolute must and I expect you would never seriously consider passing at the table. For every -500/-800 that you get you score up 8 smaller swings, ranging from 1 IMP for down 1 in 3C while they make 2S+1, to pushing them to 3S for down 1, to a double partscore swing. Passing on a hand like this seems a losing tactic so I don't think that is any less "risky", whatever that means.

[jtfanclub]

cherdano, on Jul 17 2008, 01:30 AM, said:

After South bids 2N, West should bid 3♠, which will get passed out. (Of course North can't bid 4♣ since partner likely has the red suits.)

Yes, sorry, missed that 2NT of course doesn't promise clubs.

[TimG]

mikeh, on Jul 16 2008, 11:24 AM, said:

It is tough to criticize the result I think it takes a diamond lead to beat it.. I don't think that a heart lead and diamond switch is quite enough unless East is foolish enough to play the club K on the 1st round of trump.

It takes a diamond lead to beat 5C by north, but a low heart lead and diamond switch is enough when south is declaring.

[P_Marlowe]

jtfanclub, on Jul 16 2008, 04:45 PM, said:

<snip>

I haven't read the Ron Klinger source you're citing, so I don't have an opinion on it. But I value it about as much as "the five level belongs to the opponents".  :-)

Hi,

the advice is taken from

"100 Winning Bridge Tips for the Improving Player"
by Ron Klinger, published 1999, but a new edition is out.
http://www.amazon.de/Winning-Bridge-Improv...6486762&sr=1-22

One of the best bridge books I have ever bought.

With kind regards
Marlowe