5(4) card majors anyone?
#1
Posted 2008-July-12, 19:27
The theroy goes like this.
In sayc you are put in a very dificult situation with 4432and 4423 (and such), often having partner alert that a one club bid may have as few as two clubs.
Now if you play a 1♥ opening as being either a 5cm or 4-4 in the majors, this problem seems eradicated.
the only awquard hand is 3433 and 4333 (note diamonds are always at least four!)
and most of the time, a 1 club bid will be at least four, and if not we can always re bid 1nt.
Further this system seems even better when playing a weak notrump because because we dont lose a posible heart fit from opining 1 nt, and that 1 club bid can be replaced with a 1nt opening. if 15-17 the posible 3 card 3 club suit seems less dangerous too.
As for partners responses if he has 4 spades he bids 1♠, 4 hearts 2♥, a flat hand 1nt.
Might need some kinks worked out of it, but is it just me or does this seem suprior to ordinary 5cm?
#2 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-July-12, 20:27
#3
Posted 2008-July-12, 20:33
#4
Posted 2008-July-12, 22:28
It's not very popular because 5cM is relatively easy & popular, and you simply don't get in a ton of trouble opening 1m on those 4423 hands all that often because of the bias towards reaching major and NT contracts (not to mention most of your competition is playing 5cM so even if it leads to poor result you often break even). Plus you are now dealing w/ different response structures for 1s/1h which is more complicated for beginners.
If you are going to allow 4cM in your M openings, then I feel it's better to do it more aggressively and open the M on 4333 and 4x(x4) hands so you get the preemptive effect, since you are giving up the constructive bidding advantages of promising 5.
Besides if you are still opening 1c on 4333, esp. in competition you still have trouble knowing whether you can support clubs even if you exclude 4423.
#5
Posted 2008-July-12, 23:54
Jlall, on Jul 13 2008, 04:27 AM, said:
Well, that really depends on where you start out!
In Norway 4cM was the norm in the olden days (that's before I started playing). And unlike in UK, the norm was up-the-line bidding, opening the lowest of two 4-card suits. Thus 4-3-3-3 was the only hand with 4-card spades that was opened 1♠. In the 70s, a standard system evolved, where 1♠ promised 5 and you opened 1♣ with 4-3-3-3.
This was the norm (and still is in fact for most players) up to the early 90s, when some (juniors mostly) started playing 1♥ showing 5, unless 44M. Thus 4-3-3-3 and 3-4-3-3 opened 1♣ and 1♦ promised 4 (as before).
This is very easy to play (for those coming from 4c♥, probably harder for 5cM players). Not raising partners spades always promice 5c♥. Only in competitive sequences you might be unable to sort out wheather opener has 44M or 5c♥, and only occasionally - mostly you're able to sort this out.
Harald
#6 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-July-13, 00:02
#7
Posted 2008-July-13, 09:11
Also popular is simply lower of two 4-card suits, where you also open 1M with 3433 and 4333. For strong no-trumpers sometimes this is extended to opening 1 of a minor with a weak NT, and 1 of the major with 18-19 balanced.
It works OK but as others have said is virtually unknown in the US.
It's actually the way I was originally taught to play, but then I was subverted into 5CM world by the man I married.
Quote
If it goes 1H (3S) partner is pretty unlikely to be 4-4 in the majors.
But this is the same problem as a highly competitive auction after 1m (3S) except you get an advantage playing 4CMs as partner's minors are more likely to be genuine.
#8
Posted 2008-July-13, 11:25
What it defiantly does seem good for, is people who play five card majors and a weaknotrump, who dont always get in to the heart contract due to opening 1nt 12-15 on a 44 hand
#9
Posted 2008-July-14, 06:28
Carvalho_A, on Jul 13 2008, 06:25 PM, said:
But if you play a weak notrump, you have to open 1NT with the 4432/4423 hands with 12-14 points anyway, no matter if 1♥ promises 4 or 5.
The reason is that if it goes
1♥-2♣
?
2NT will now show 15+ points, while 2♠ will be a reverse.
FWIW I think that if you play 4-cards up the line, 1M will almost promises 5 and since it's more important to be accurate about the major suits than the minor suits, those who open the lower of two 4-cards should really play 5-card majors. But apparently there are some good players, especially in Scandinavia (and Cascade on this forum) who play 4-card majors and open the lower of two 4-cards. So I suppose it has merits somehow.
#10
Posted 2008-July-14, 06:43
AKTx
Kx
Kxxx
Jxx
Playing 15-17 NT and 4-card majors up-the-line, open this hand 1♠ and rebid 2NT over partners 2/1. (2/1 Acol style, so 2NT is nonforcing)
#11
Posted 2008-July-14, 06:48
helene_t, on Jul 14 2008, 12:28 PM, said:
I can't see the point of playing 4cM and then opening 4 carders up the line. It makes the majors virtually always 5 anyway - might as well go the whole hog and open 5cM anyway - or play 4cM and open the higher (except the 4/4 majors) to get the pre-emptive effect and find the 4/4 fits straight away. Do one or the other - 4 carders up the line seems a pointless compromise to me.
Perhaps someone can advance an argument in favour of it, but I'd take a lot of convincing.
Nick
#12
Posted 2008-July-14, 06:56
plaur, on Jul 14 2008, 12:43 PM, said:
AKTx
Kx
Kxxx
Jxx
Playing 15-17 NT and 4-card majors up-the-line, open this hand 1♠ and rebid 2NT over partners 2/1. (2/1 Acol style, so 2NT is nonforcing)
Playing 4cM with strong NT (or even slightly strong like 13-15) plus the usual Acol style of 2/1 with 9+ means that you can end up in 2NT on a combined 21 count. I find this to be unacceptable in any system. To my mind, if you want a strong NT, then you either have to play 5cM or make your 2/1 responses at least game invitational. The latter has much to recommend if you mainly play IMPs as I see it.
Nick
#13
Posted 2008-July-14, 15:51
Goren used to have an entire chapter devoted to which suit to open. 5cM is a single rule with an exception that some ignore (even experts).
Rule: If you have a 5cM, open your highest ranking 5cM, otherwise bid your best minor.
Exception: Bid a 6-card minor before a 5cM.
Don't worry about suit strength, points in suit, or any other honor consideration. Let experts re-evaluate hands based on honor location. For most players, total HCP and suit lengths is all that matters.
BTW, "best minor" means longest, so you will always have at least 3-cards in the minor you open. And 80% of the time, opener will have 4+cards in the minor, so best minor is not such a big deal.
#14
Posted 2008-July-15, 14:51
NickRW, on Jul 14 2008, 07:56 AM, said:
When my partnerships abandoned 4cM Acol in favour of 5cM we initially tried 2/1 responses as game invitational, but had huge problems coping with continuations. After a number of months we bit the bullet and played proper 2/1 GF. Much easier to handle. Incidentally, we play 2/1 with a mini NT, not strong !
As far as the initial question goes, though, I can't really see the problem with keeping 1M as guaranteed 5 card, and opening a club on those other hands. You can develop more complex methods of replies to always find the best major fit, we play a variation of transfer walsh, but the best pair in our club simply have an artificial diamond reply which denies a 5 card major, then opener bids his 4 card major(s) up the line.
Having 1M as 5 cards guaranteed makes it much, much simpler to find the right contract, with or without opposition bidding. Constructive bidding and preemption are both pretty hit and miss if you don't know opener's length.
#15
Posted 2008-July-15, 14:57
Carvalho_A, on Jul 13 2008, 12:25 PM, said:
Last night at the club there were 2 hands where a 4/4 heart fit was better in 2♥ than the vast majority of the field playing in 1NT. That's one reason a mini NT works well. With 10-12 you have the preemptive effect, and with 13-15 you open 1♣ and find these fits other (weak NT) people miss.
#16
Posted 2008-July-16, 01:14
But this experience is just mine.
There are still many fine players who play 4 card majorse. But if you look at the world championships, 5 card majors are in an overwhelming majority. So what is good for the best should be good for the rest too.
Roland
Sanity Check: Failure (Fluffy)
More system is not the answer...
#17
Posted 2008-July-16, 01:56
#18
Posted 2008-July-16, 04:59
Codo, on Jul 16 2008, 09:14 AM, said:
In our reigning world and european champions teams we had six pairs. Two of them (Grøtheim-Tundal and Brogeland-Lindqvist) played 5-card majors (G-T playing Viking Club). The rest played natural systems with 5c♠ 4c♥.
Harald
#19
Posted 2008-July-16, 07:12
skaeran, on Jul 16 2008, 07:59 PM, said:
Codo, on Jul 16 2008, 09:14 AM, said:
In our reigning world and european champions teams we had six pairs. Two of them (Grøtheim-Tundal and Brogeland-Lindqvist) played 5-card majors (G-T playing Viking Club). The rest played natural systems with 5c♠ 4c♥.
Our best pair in pau plays swiss acol, but I think that some captains did research about the systems and 5 card majors had been in a great majority?
(This does not make 5 card major systems better, but it makes it useless to reinvent the wheel again and try for something fancy instead of sticking to the standard here.)
Roland
Sanity Check: Failure (Fluffy)
More system is not the answer...
#20
Posted 2008-July-16, 10:09
fromageGB, on Jul 15 2008, 08:51 PM, said:
Yeah. I bow to your experience of it. My point was that 4cM is quite playable with weak NT (indeed, for MP, arguably better than just playable). But if you shift your NT range higher it gives problems.