[effervesce]

I found card counting for blackjack - I tried counting cards played in every single suit-with practice it becomes easier and easier and faster. Only practiced for a short time though - I'm wondering how useful it is to practice counting cards this way. Do top players have a mental tally of cards played in each suit? I can remember the cards outstanding in critical suits, but all 4 suits at the moment I find it more difficult unless I concentrate extremely hard.

Or do top players just remember the cards played to each and every single trick and thus can reconstruct exactly what cards have been played.

At the moment, I can count the cards played in each suit in 2 mins 30 secs not great.... *wonders if i can get it below 1 min* [Note: For counting practice I used the 'deal one at a time' button ]

[EDIT : yes Artk78 that tool was for blackjack not poker sorry - silly me]

[ArtK78]

Interesting.

I have played bridge for many years. I played blackjack successfully for some time, counting cards using a simple +1/0/-1 count, and I play poker.

It never occurred to me that one should count cards at poker, as each hand is a new deal, and only a limited number of cards are in view during the hand.

At blackjack, you must keep track of the cards to be a successful card counter. But the cards can be grouped together - using the +1/0/-1 count that I used, every 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 were +1, 7, 8 and 9 were neutral, and 10, J, Q, K and A were -1. There are variations on this method, and other refinements (separate count of aces, for example), but the refinements add only slightly compared to the extra mental gymnastics.

In bridge, it is often necessary to remember the EXACT cards played. Most of the time, knowing how many cards in a suit have been played is sufficient, but sometimes you must know whether the remaining cards are the 8, 7, 6 and 5 or the 8, 7, 3 and 2. Every so often the last round of a suit results in a 4 beating a 3.

It is also very important to know how many cards each player has shown up with in each suit so that one can figure out the exact distribution of each opponent.

Learning to count cards using the poker count tool is not a bad thing to do, but its application to counting bridge hands is limited.

[effervesce]

ArtK78, on May 20 2008, 09:57 AM, said:

Interesting.

I have played bridge for many years.  I played blackjack successfully for some time, counting cards using a simple +1/0/-1 count, and I play poker.

It never occurred to me that one should count cards at poker, as each hand is a new deal, and only a limited number of cards are in view during the hand.

At blackjack, you must keep track of the cards to be a successful card counter.  But the cards can be grouped together - using the +1/0/-1 count that I used, every 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 were +1, 7, 8 and 9 were neutral, and 10, J, Q, K and A were -1.  There are variations on this method, and other refinements (separate count of aces, for example), but the refinements add only slightly compared to the extra mental gymnastics.

In bridge, it is often necessary to remember the EXACT cards played.  Most of the time, knowing how many cards in a suit have been played is sufficient, but sometimes you must know whether the remaining cards are the 8, 7, 6 and 5 or the 8, 7, 3 and 2.  Every so often the last round of a suit results in a 4 beating a 3.

It is also very important to know how many cards each player has shown up with in each suit so that one can figure out the exact distribution of each opponent.

Learning to count cards using the poker count tool is not a bad thing to do, but its application to counting bridge hands is limited.

Sure, of course working out distribution is important - I'm reasonable at that. It's just remembering precisely what cards have not been played is my difficulty. I figure that, in conjunction with working out distribution, remembering how many cards of each suit played would be extremely useful in endgame situations.

[ArtK78]

Many years ago, when a former bridge partner of mine and I first started getting interested in blackjack, we would practice counting by taking a deck of cards, removing 4 cards from the deck, and going through the deck as fast as we could, counting the cards. At the end, we would compare our count to the cards that were removed from the deck. I don't remember how fast we were able to count the deck accurately (25 seconds? 30 seconds? - there are physical limitations to how fast you can go through a deck of cards), but in real life at the blackjack table you don't have to be anywhere near as fast as we were able to do it in our exercises.

Nor is complete accuracy much of a problem. The fact is, if you are a card or two off in your count in a 6-deck or 8-deck shoe at blackjack, the loss of accuracy is minimal.

At bridge, missing a card or two usually results in a major error.

So, as I stated before, using a counting tool geared to blackjack is fine for counting cards at blackjack. Whether that skill is transferrable to the bridge table is not at all clear.

[pclayton]

Bridge is a game of pattern recognition and reconstruction of the unseen hands based on bidding and playing.

You have this element in poker, but its more subtle, because there are less cards in play and much less clues available. You must rely on betting patterns and tells a lot more than you do in bridge.

If you work on pattern recognition, you will become a lot better at figuring out the unseen hands. Fortunately, only a handful of hands every session will come down to the location of a critical 7 or 8 spot.

[cjames]

I find this BOLS tips from Matthew Granovetter, to be extremely usefull http://www.haroldsch...granovetter.htm


Take some time to learn the most common patterns, so you can recognize them faster at the table. So, when someone shows out you could instantly know the suit to split f.ex 6-3-2-2 and not begin substracting from 13 or something like that. Then you can spend more energy at remembering the spot cards.

[matmat]

a little while ago Fred posted a flash game that he had written (mostly on a whim, i think, though don't want to accuse him of that ). This was just pattern recognition/memorization. you'd get the first three numbers of a hand pattern flash on the screen and, as quickly as you could, you had to fill in the fourth.

Anyhow, I think it might be nice to have a game where the software plays out a certain number of tricks (based on difficulty level), and at a certain pace (also allowed to vary). After those it asks you a series of questions like, what was the opening lead? how many <suit> have been played. how many <suit> are left unplayed? what is the lowest <suit> spot card remaining? what is the highest <name a suit> card remaining? did anyone show out in <suit>? How many rounds of <suit> have been played? etc.

[Mbodell]

cjames, on May 20 2008, 08:13 AM, said:

I find this BOLS tips from Matthew Granovetter, to be extremely usefull http://www.haroldsch...granovetter.htm


Take some time to learn the most common patterns, so you can recognize them faster at the table. So, when someone shows out you could instantly know the suit to split f.ex 6-3-2-2 and not begin substracting from 13 or something like that. Then you can spend more energy at remembering the spot cards.

I've found that playing a relay system helps with this too as the patterns solidified for me after starting to play relay. It also has a side benefit that when I look at my hand and notice a 6-3-2-1 hand I'm much quicker at realizing that either I have a card hidden (common case) or only 12 cards (uncommon since I count without looking first).

[ArtK78]

Jlall, on May 20 2008, 01:09 PM, said:

ArtK78, on May 20 2008, 09:57 AM, said:

It never occurred to me that one should count cards at poker, as each hand is a new deal, and only a limited number of cards are in view during the hand.

Guess you've never played stud? Counting is important 7 card stud for sure.

That is true - I have never played stud. But, even so, all the cards are there in view except for those that have been mucked. And it really is not too difficult to remember the cards that have been mucked.

[Mbodell]

ArtK78, on May 20 2008, 10:46 AM, said:

Jlall, on May 20 2008, 01:09 PM, said:

ArtK78, on May 20 2008, 09:57 AM, said:

It never occurred to me that one should count cards at poker, as each hand is a new deal, and only a limited number of cards are in view during the hand.

Guess you've never played stud? Counting is important 7 card stud for sure.

That is true - I have never played stud. But, even so, all the cards are there in view except for those that have been mucked. And it really is not too difficult to remember the cards that have been mucked.

It is if you multi-table!

Even in a casino it can be hard to remember the "unimportant" cards when things move quickly. But it is definitely important. More so in stud where any rank and/or suit can be useful than in razz where some blanks aren't that important.

[ArtK78]

If you multi-table a game where you can see some of the cards in play, such as stud, you are making life very difficult for yourself.

I multi-table NL hold 'em, but you never see an opponent's cards until it is too late to do anything about them.

[Dwingo]

Apart from Fred's "A new game the whole family can play" which is pinned in BBO Forums, I remember seeing another website that was very useful to practice your card counting skills in bridge. This website had more than 1 suit in play. Unfortunately I did not bookmark that page then. I tried googling and I am unable to find.

If anyone can remember seeing such a website, I would appreciate if they could post the link

Thanks.

[Rossoneri]

Dwingo, on Apr 25 2009, 05:17 AM, said:

Apart from Fred's "A new game the whole family can play" which is pinned in BBO Forums, I remember seeing another website that was very useful to practice your card counting skills in bridge. This website had more than 1 suit in play. Unfortunately I did not bookmark that page then. I tried googling and I am unable to find.

If anyone can remember seeing such a website, I would appreciate if they could post the link

Thanks.

http://eastontario.c.../countIntro.htm is the website I believe you are looking for.

Links to the games are at the bottom of the page.

[Dwingo]

Thanks Rossoneri. Yes this was the one I was looking for.

[pirate22]

good topic-yes when one is starting out, so much to remember,and do

early on-before internet,and printed sheets of hands----on my cc card, on opening lead, i wrote down contract and the lead, i found this usefull,if i was decl i could remember the lead later on-------if we were defending it also helped,at the end of club bridge-the travellers were left in the boards,and next day would anylize the hands-and discuss with my partner. the opening lead, so important

But what i then did, was have 4 TV screens, as declarer, on opening lead dummy was 4th TV screen---- then filled opps sceeen's as play went on--no need to fill in my screen

but when defending one has to fill in 3 screens, this helped immensely.
it is now so automatic,and no mental effort

regards