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We play 2NT as invitational or better with 4 card heart support in this situation; in our system we have to either bid X then 2NT (if you're aiming for NT), or 2♠ limit+ raise in hearts with 3 card support or just bash 3NT. I don't mind bashing 3NT actually - the 10♠ is likely to be a second spade stopper, and 3NT is almost as good as 3♥.
Choices soft values
#21
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Posted 2008-May-21, 17:35
Ming
--Always remember you're unique. Just like everyone else.
--Always remember you're unique. Just like everyone else.
#22
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Posted 2008-May-21, 18:11
I dislike not showing my H support, however this hand is a simple 1NT for me. To me 2N shows better, like 12-13 or a sound 11. I believe 2N is an overbid.
#23
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Posted 2008-May-21, 18:15
This is a really good thread and close choice, but I have to stick with the support with support adage and go with 2♠ but 2NT could work out, and at times the cautious 1NT may prove best.
2♠ limit or better.
2♠ limit or better.
#24 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-May-21, 20:20
FrancesHinden, on May 21 2008, 11:18 AM, said:
benlessard, on May 20 2008, 05:54 AM, said:
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I think 2N is really sick, but I think 1N is quite reasonable. 1N gets our values across and lets us stop low if that's a winner, and also aims at getting us to what will often be the right strain. Our hand is pretty crappy for a 4H contract relative to a 3N contract, and it's not impossible to get back to hearts after bidding 1N. Anyways vul at imps I'd still probably just bid 2S.
I see at least 2 contradiction in this post.
1A--Our hand is pretty crappy for a 4H contract relative to a 3N contract
1B-- Anyways vul at imps id still just bid 2S
I don't see contradictions, I see uncertainty.
I see...
"I quite fancy the underbid of 1NT because it's not a great hand and if partner makes a game try over 1NT we have a better chance of getting to the right strain;
but vul at imps I'm going to stick with the 'systemic' limit raise of 2S because if 1NT ends the auction we might have missed game"
Quote
From a value showing point of view we can safely say that.
1Nt is the weakest
2Nt is in the middle.
2S is the strongest.
So the middle bid cant be atrocious from a value point of view if the 2 other bids are reasonnables (from a value point of view)
1Nt is the weakest
2Nt is in the middle.
2S is the strongest.
So the middle bid cant be atrocious from a value point of view if the 2 other bids are reasonnables (from a value point of view)
No. While 2NT is a limit bid and 2S is unlimited so you could argue in some sense that 2S is stronger, if you are bidding 2S to show a limit raise then its strength is about the same as a 2NT bid, just a different hand type.
Quote
partner is more likely to make a move over 2Nt then over 1Nt. So im more likely to play in H after 2Nt then after 1Nt.
Partner's most likely move over 2NT is to bid 3NT. If you are planning to bid 4H over that then you are saying that 2NT on the first round was an error.
Partner's most likely (game try) move over 1NT is to bid 2NT. You still have room to bid 3H over that.
Wow Frances to my rescue ♥
#25
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Posted 2008-May-21, 20:52
I cannot bid 2NT either, conventionally. Not sure I would if I could, anyway.
I'm going out on a limb here. Double. I'll lie like a bastard about the diamond suit because I want to think for a minute before I commit to anything.
I'm going out on a limb here. Double. I'll lie like a bastard about the diamond suit because I want to think for a minute before I commit to anything.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."
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#26
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Posted 2008-May-21, 22:19
Here's another problem with 2N. Unless you play 3 of a minor here as forcing, you are kind of stuck. Pard's next bid could end the bidding so what is he supposed to do with a hand that wants to probe for other strains beside NT? 2♠ allows pard to make some game tries and you can follow up with a 3N call which is a nice descrption.
"Phil" on BBO
#27
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Posted 2008-May-22, 00:15
Quote
Here's another problem with 2N. Unless you play 3 of a minor here as forcing, you are kind of stuck.
An unlimited hand that pull 2nt into a new suit is 100% forcing. Most C players knows that.
Quote
No. While 2NT is a limit bid and 2S is unlimited so you could argue in some sense that 2S is stronger, if you are bidding 2S to show a limit raise then its strength is about the same as a 2NT bid, just a different hand type.
Even if 2S is limited (only a limit raise) its a bit more foward going then a 2Nt bid. Its not just a matter of hands type. Its would be interesting to check on bridge browser the games that are being reached after 2Nt vs after 2S limit
If you play without 1nt forcing.
1M----???
Statistically speaking 4M is more frequent then 3Nt.
I think its pretty obvious that 2M is more foward going then 1Nt.
and we can safely say that a limit raise is more foward going then a natural 2nt.
Any1 would play raw score or rubber bridge will prefer that partner show a limit raise then a natural balanced invite at 2nt.
With the overcall there is some differences.
1H----(1S)-----???
here 2H is competitive (could be a courtesy raise) and 1nt is more constructive (you can pass with some 6-7 count) and its clear that on this hand 1Nt is much better then a single raise of 2H. But does that mean that 2Nt is more foward going then a limit raise? I dont think so. To invite one must make sure that the chance of reaching a good game outweitgh the risk of going down because we are 1 level higher. Forcing ourself to reach 3H instead of 2H should suggest the same risk/benefit calculation then reaching 2Nt instead of 1Nt/2H. On a hand where there is some strong signs that show 3NT as more likely then 4H why would i prefer to play 3M instead of 2Nt ? If im willing to go 1 level higher then the safe 2H why im not willing to go higher then the safe 1Nt ?
Maybe the fact that you believe that reaching the correct strain would be easier after 1nt then after 2Nt (i disagree with that) clouded your jugement too much. Its doesnt make any sense to see 2Nt as an overbid (to call it atrocious is plain poor judgment).
Partner opened in 1st seat and you have 11hcp a K of that is placed behind and QJx in partner suits. What do you want more ? Its should be at least clear to anyone that 1Nt is a underbid by a spread that is greater than 2Nt is an overbid (some people are considering to force game with the hand and there is a lot more vote for 2Nt then for 1Nt)
From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
#28
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Posted 2008-May-22, 09:05
I agree with Justin and Frances here.
Kind regards,
Harald
Harald
#29
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Posted 2008-May-23, 09:24
kenrexford, on May 21 2008, 09:52 PM, said:
I'm going out on a limb here. Double. I'll lie like a bastard about the diamond suit because I want to think for a minute before I commit to anything.
I like X also, Maybe X followed by a minimum NT bid (or raise hearts if they are rebid) would convey this hand pretty well.
Bill
#30
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Posted 2008-May-23, 10:15
benlessard, on May 21 2008, 10:15 PM, said:
Quote
Here's another problem with 2N. Unless you play 3 of a minor here as forcing, you are kind of stuck.
An unlimited hand that pull 2nt into a new suit is 100% forcing. Most C players knows that.
Really? I would have thought the opposite. With a strong 5-4 or 5-5, I can cue, bid 3N or jump to 4x. With xx AQxxx, x, Axxxx I really would like the option of bailing in 3♣.
I guess I ditched class that day.
"Phil" on BBO
#31
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Posted 2008-May-23, 10:40
pclayton, on May 23 2008, 05:15 PM, said:
benlessard, on May 21 2008, 10:15 PM, said:
Quote
Here's another problem with 2N. Unless you play 3 of a minor here as forcing, you are kind of stuck.
An unlimited hand that pull 2nt into a new suit is 100% forcing. Most C players knows that.
Really? I would have thought the opposite. With a strong 5-4 or 5-5, I can cue, bid 3N or jump to 4x. With xx AQxxx, x, Axxxx I really would like the option of bailing in 3♣.
I guess I ditched class that day.
Or maybe you aren't a C player?