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It would not occur to me to bid 4♣ at IMPs with this hand (and certainly not when ahead in a short match).
There are three ways to loose a lot of IMPs on this board.
1) We go down (doubled or even undoubled), when nobody can make anything.
2) We miss a game that was bid easily at the other table.
3) We let the opponents get to a good game.
A bid of 4♣ combines the first two risks. After a 1♣ opening, you take the third risk. And by opening 5♣ you basically only risk to go down a lot.
I will simplify the problem (at the risk of oversimplifying): A bid of 4♣ comes with two ways to loose lots of IMPs, while a bid of 1♣ or 5♣ comes with one way to loose lots of IMPs. To put it very simple (but very clear): 4♣ is twice as bad as the alternatives.
Or look at it from the other perspective: You bid 4♣ and at the other table they bid 5♣. You win 300 points (7 IMPs) if you go down doubled. But you loose 450 points (10 IMPs) if 5♣ makes and you don't get to game. (Does partner know to bid game with two aces, two queens and a singleton club?)
I don't have much of a preference when it comes too choosing between 1♣ and 5♣, but I actively dislike 4♣ (at IMPS, at this score).
Rik
How would you open? What's your bid?
#21
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Posted 2008-May-17, 04:20
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#22 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-May-17, 04:37
Trinidad, on May 17 2008, 05:20 AM, said:
I will simplify the problem (at the risk of oversimplifying): A bid of 4♣ comes with two ways to loose lots of IMPs, while a bid of 1♣ or 5♣ comes with one way to loose lots of IMPs. To put it very simple (but very clear): 4♣ is twice as bad as the alternatives.
So by this logic you should never open 4C at imps. That's brilliant man. Clearly this logic is the way to go because ways to win imps on a board don't factor in, and how many imps you do lose when you lose imps doesn't factor in either. And how frequently these losing situations occur given your hand doesn't factor in either. You're right, it's 2:1.
In fact, by this logic, on every single hand it's better to open 5C or 1C than 4C, no matter what. Because your "logic" of the situation doesn't even account for what you're freaking hand is! It's just 2:1.
It's unreal what people can come up with lol.
Thank you for the thorough and thoughtful analysis.
#23
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Posted 2008-May-17, 04:56
Trinidad, on May 17 2008, 12:20 PM, said:
(Does partner know to bid game with two aces, two queens and a singleton club?)
Yes, at least he should consider a raise.
If you bid a high preempt in red you should, count your loser and hope for 2 tricks from partner to make. This defines the level you bid. Depending on which 2 aces and 2 Q partner has he might see more than 2 tricks in his hand and rise.
#24
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Posted 2008-May-17, 08:44
Jlall, on May 17 2008, 05:37 AM, said:
Trinidad, on May 17 2008, 05:20 AM, said:
I will simplify the problem (at the risk of oversimplifying): A bid of 4♣ comes with two ways to loose lots of IMPs, while a bid of 1♣ or 5♣ comes with one way to loose lots of IMPs. To put it very simple (but very clear): 4♣ is twice as bad as the alternatives.
That's brilliant man. Clearly this logic is the way to go because ways to win imps on a board don't factor in.
You got it exactly!
At this state of the match (game swing up, a few boards to go), I am only interested in not loosing a lot of IMPs and not interested in winning IMPs. So, no, in this particular situation, they don't factor in.
Nice to see that you understood my post the way it was intended!
Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#25
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Posted 2008-May-17, 09:02
Trinidad, on May 17 2008, 09:44 AM, said:
At this state of the match (game swing up, a few boards to go), I am only interested in not loosing a lot of IMPs and not interested in winning IMPs. So, no, in this particular situation, they don't factor in.
It could be that this comment was just in self-defense after Justin criticized your earlier post, rather than a serious opinion.
But in any case, I would like to mention that being 8 IMPs up with 7 boards to play should not influence your play in any way. Many people do think that as soon as they are a few IMPS ahead, they should immediately tighten up, and nurse those IMPs to the finish line. I can't think of a more likely way to lose a small lead than playing bridge in this way.
If you happen to lose 13 IMPs on the last hand (yes, it can happen!), you will regret your deliberate anti-percentage efforts in turning down opportunities to win IMPs on the other 6 hands.
That's impossible. No one can give more than one hundred percent. By definition that is the most anyone can give.
#26
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Posted 2008-May-17, 09:26
The advantages about 4C? It's a preempt, and preempts work. Since we are vul, partner would expect me to have my bid, thus he can judge the situation (raising to game, penalising them etc). Plus, people rarely X 4m openings for penalties and they have a hard time to judge whether it's safe to come into the auction or not as opposed to opening it 5C, which they can easily hit that. Don't you just love it when it goes
4C - (4M) - X.
4C - (4M) - X.
- Andy -
We are all connected to each other biologically, to the Earth chemically, and to the rest of the universe atomically.
We're in the universe, and the universe is in us.
We are all connected to each other biologically, to the Earth chemically, and to the rest of the universe atomically.
We're in the universe, and the universe is in us.
#27 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-May-17, 09:50
Trinidad, on May 17 2008, 09:44 AM, said:
Jlall, on May 17 2008, 05:37 AM, said:
Trinidad, on May 17 2008, 05:20 AM, said:
I will simplify the problem (at the risk of oversimplifying): A bid of 4♣ comes with two ways to loose lots of IMPs, while a bid of 1♣ or 5♣ comes with one way to loose lots of IMPs. To put it very simple (but very clear): 4♣ is twice as bad as the alternatives.
That's brilliant man. Clearly this logic is the way to go because ways to win imps on a board don't factor in.
You got it exactly!
At this state of the match (game swing up, a few boards to go), I am only interested in not loosing a lot of IMPs and not interested in winning IMPs. So, no, in this particular situation, they don't factor in.
Nice to see that you understood my post the way it was intended!
Rik
So you maintain that 5C loses lots of imps less often than 4C? You should really rethink that from a common sense point of view. I mean...lol?
#28
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Posted 2008-May-17, 10:35
655321, on May 17 2008, 10:02 AM, said:
Trinidad, on May 17 2008, 09:44 AM, said:
At this state of the match (game swing up, a few boards to go), I am only interested in not loosing a lot of IMPs and not interested in winning IMPs. So, no, in this particular situation, they don't factor in.
It could be that this comment was just in self-defense after Justin criticized your earlier post, rather than a serious opinion.
But in any case, I would like to mention that being 8 IMPs up with 7 boards to play should not influence your play in any way. Many people do think that as soon as they are a few IMPS ahead, they should immediately tighten up, and nurse those IMPs to the finish line. I can't think of a more likely way to lose a small lead than playing bridge in this way.
If you happen to lose 13 IMPs on the last hand (yes, it can happen!), you will regret your deliberate anti-percentage efforts in turning down opportunities to win IMPs on the other 6 hands.
I fully agree with you. The difference is that I read the original post a little different from you.
You read "You're winning this match by 8 imp's with 7 boards to go" as "8 IMPs up, 7 boards to go. Now this board comes up." Makes perfect sense.
I read it as: "You were 8 IMPs up when there were 7 boards to go [, and so far in this last set nothing special has happened]." I read it like that because the OP must have thought that the state of the match was important, otherwise he wouldn't have mentioned it. That makes some sense too, but I probably just put too much emphasis on the state of the match.
So, in short, my opinion was serious, but based on different circumstances.
Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#29
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Posted 2008-May-17, 11:03
Quote
1♣. Don't preempt yourself out of 3N
Pass works, too.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
#30
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Posted 2008-May-17, 12:19
Winstonm, on May 17 2008, 09:03 AM, said:
Quote
1♣. Don't preempt yourself out of 3N
Pass works, too.
LOL it probably would.
"Phil" on BBO
#31
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Posted 2008-May-18, 10:35
Winstonm, on May 17 2008, 12:03 PM, said:
Quote
1♣. Don't preempt yourself out of 3N
Pass works, too.
Ok now it's getting hard to tell when you are just messing with us...
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
#32 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-May-18, 10:53
jdonn, on May 18 2008, 11:35 AM, said:
Winstonm, on May 17 2008, 12:03 PM, said:
Quote
1♣. Don't preempt yourself out of 3N
Pass works, too.
Ok now it's getting hard to tell when you are just messing with us...
I have played against Winston a fair amount and he really does pass a lot
#33
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Posted 2008-May-19, 00:01
Playing big club i would open 3C because we have a way to show weaker preempt with 2Nt.
Playing natural i would bid 4C.
Being 8 imps ahead with 7 board isnt significant enough to change my 4C.
5C red is too much for me.
Playing natural i would bid 4C.
Being 8 imps ahead with 7 board isnt significant enough to change my 4C.
5C red is too much for me.
From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
#34
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Posted 2008-May-19, 00:11
surely the questioned to ask yourself is ...what are the opps liable to do ?
where I come from having a punt at 5 clubs is liable to be a popular answer , so that,s for me
where I come from having a punt at 5 clubs is liable to be a popular answer , so that,s for me
#35
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Posted 2008-May-19, 07:09
I think the current vote - about half for 1♣ and most of the rest split between 4♣ and 5♣ - is about right. This is one case where the state of the match, the caliber of the opponents and pure table feel make a difference imo.