[jillybean]

Scoring: MP

West opens 2♠, North pass, how should East respond?

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[the hog]

To be honest, I would just Pass on the hand which partner can correct to 2S. You have a lot of "soft values" more suited to defence than to declaring.

[mishovnbg]

Spoiler

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Hi jillybean2!

Yes, you must bid something and because you have some hcp good bid is 2NT - kind of inv/relay/asking bid. If you don't play any conventions with p and he rebid 3♠ you pass, if he bid something else, probably nat values you will bid game. In actual board: 2♠-2NT, 3♠-Pass. 3♠ is probably down 1, but opps have at least 3♣, so still wining contract. General advice: if you have fit - give him to partner even with not very good hand - not a perfect world .

Spoiler

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Misho

[Cascade]

I would bid 3♠.

I do not think you have enough to invite game with 2NT and the cards are too defensive to pre-empt 4♠.

[the hog]

I would bid 3♠.

The way most people play, 3S is a signoff in S and GF if pd has Hearts. Do you really want to play 4H with such soft values? If you are going to bid anything like this, at least bid 3H.

Sorry, I thought the opening was a 2D multi - hence the above post

[flytoox]

jillybean2, on Mar 16 2004, 06:44 AM, said:

Scoring: MP

West opens 2♠, North pass, how should East respond?

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passsssssss. all are soft values. opps wont have game. what is the point to push?

[Free]

I would probably bid 2NT, strong relay, and sign off in 3♠. Btw, I wouldn't open this hand 2♠ Vulnerable, too much losers...

[inquiry]

What does EAST know?

1) Game is unlikely, well, virtually impossible, opposite a weak two.
2) His side has a ten card fit, so the other side has a nine or ten card ft almost for sure.
3) 2♠ is unlikely to be passed out.

What should EAST do?

Three solutions have been suggested, PASS, 2NT (then bailing out in 3♠), or a direct raise to 3♠. First, I am totally against 2NT. the reason is that this is counter to good partnership bidding. Your partner, with a maxium 2♠ bid (I am not talking specifically about this hand, which isn't max), may well bid 4♠ even when and if you get a chance to "sign-off" in 3♠.

So that leaves the make it hard for them to bid ♠ and the hide you head in the sand Pass. I think i would be swayed by my four ♥'s which makes a balancing double difficult to land on their feet and go the timid route and pass. But I have no problem with the road-blocking 3♠. Either bid might work well, or poorly in general an on this hand in specific. (For instance, in 3♠, you could easily lose 2♥, 1♥ruff, 2♣ and 1♦ or three ♥ outright without a ruff for down two. Even undoubled that could be a matchpoint disaster. However, it wouldn't surprise me to find a lot of the field in 3 or even 4♠s.

Ben

[mishovnbg]

Spoiler

--------------------------

Hi Ben, Ron and Richard!

I respect you all! But I think you are misleaded here! Probably because 26 cards example... List of my thoughts:

• 1. I have ♠QJ10x, so my partner don't have good intermediate cards in his suit. To open in vul he need something more, like 6-4 or 7. I don't expect my p to open with 5 (optimistic) tricks in vul.
  
• 2. He may have or don't have side value in above case, I can investigate this only by 2NT asking bid.
  
• 3. If he have distribution, where I expect he to have shortage - most probable in ♥, where I have 4 cards and most probable he have 4 cards side minor - not interesting which, because I fill them both.
  
• 4. Most of beginner/intermediate players open hands below 13hcp with weak 2, unlike adanced+ players.
  
• 5. To miss game in vul is worse than miss score, in which case it can be good sacrifice, because they will probable will not double us because of lack of intermediate cards in ♠.

Examples:

Scoring: IMP

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Scoring: IMP

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Scoring: IMP

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Scoring: IMP

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Spoiler

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Regards, Misho

[mr1303]

When learning weak 2s, beginners are taught that they should have a good 6 card suit, with 2 of the top 3 trump honours when vul, and at least KJxxxx when not vul. Despite having played for a few years, and having seen all sorts of rubbish opened as weak 2s, these rules work well, and I stick to them strongly.

In my opinion, a weak 2 should show exactly 6 cards in the bid suit. So it is impossible for my partner to have hands 3 and 4, which I think are perfectly good 3 level openings.

Opposite a vulnerable weak 2, the 3 level should certainly be safe enough. It is unfortunate that opener has very flat distribution, but give him another hand e.g.

---

then 3 spades is cold, with opps likely to be able to make 3H. Also, a hand such as

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is too strong for a pre-empt, and is a perfectly sound 1 level opening.

I would therefore bid 3S, and expect to make it. Make the opponents bid at the 4 level if they want to steal the contract.

[Free]

Imo it's better to base your weak-two's on losers, rather than HCP. When you are NV you may have up to 8 losers, when V maximum 7 losers. That way, your partner can make pretty good judgement weither or not to balance, prebalance or bid game to make (or even start slam investigation). The shown hand is too weak for a V opening.

The hands shown by Misho are better examples, they all have only 7 losers so you can open 2♠. But in hands 2 and 4, you might get trouble. Hand 2 is a 6 loser hand, so you might lose game, hand 4 is more difficult, because you have an extra trump (which usually means a loser less). But when you open at 3-level it might be too high. These hands are on the edge between 2-level and 3-level openings...

[luis]

I will bid 2NT Ogust based on "general principles" the hands that Misho showed are not what I expect from pd. In fact pd can have such a wide variety of hands that asking is almost mandatory in this situation.

Then if he has:

bad hand, bad suit => 3s
bad hand, good suit => 3s
good hand, bad suit => 4s
good hand, good suit => 3NT

[Cascade]

flytoox, on Mar 16 2004, 10:12 AM, said:

jillybean2, on Mar 16 2004, 06:44 AM, said:

Scoring: MP

West opens 2♠, North pass, how should East respond?

---

passsssssss. all are soft values. opps wont have game. what is the point to push?

The opps almost certainly have a club part-score. You can make it harder for them by bidding 3♠.

[Cave_Draco]

IMO, a Weak 2 should be a disciplined bid...

6-10hcp; 6-card trump suit, denies 4-cards in the other Major; most of the hcp in the trump suit; no more than ONE feature outside the trump suit. (2NT response is forcing & asks about the outside feature.)

With responders hand, what outside feature can opener have that makes 4♠ a good contract?

If Opener has:-

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Not very likely...
Just raise to 3♠, sit back &

[inquiry]

mishovnbg, on Mar 16 2004, 01:08 PM, said:

Spoiler

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Hi Ben, Ron and Richard!

I respect you all! But I think you are misleaded here! Probably because 26 cards example... List of my thoughts:

Hi Misho,

As a general rule, I don't think advocating opening some of the hands below that you proposed in your response is something we should do in a beginner's thread, but here you go... real world issues....

Scoring: IMP

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South hand has 2.5 quick tricks, 6 losers, and by Goren point count or ZAR point count an easy opening bid of 1♠. I think hoping parnter has an opening one bid when he opens two is not a good strategy. I think even many beginners and most intermediates would judge that hand as worth an opening bid.

This next hand is closer. Some people just will not open a 7 hcp hand, the reasons are varied, but among them is that some places have an 8 hcp minimum for a legal opening bid. But if you can open rule of 20 (heck rule of 18) this hand is a clear opening bids (don't go passing with 6-5 hands if you can find a reason to bid)...

Scoring: IMP

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ZAR Points? This one is loaded.. 7hcp + 3 control + 11 legnth + 5 long-short=26, just enough to open one ♠

Scoring: IMP

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This one is even better than the last one, worth ZAR 27 (7hcp, 3 controls, 10 legnth, 7 long minus short)

Scoring: IMP

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Ok.. this is hand that just barely meets the opening bid requierments on ZAR points (7+3+10+6), but I would open 2♠ instead of 1 on. I just don't like the weak seven card suit That much..

Note games all make because your partner had an opening hand in your examples.

[the hog]

"Just raise to 3♠, sit back & smile"

-200 usually does not make me smile. A bottom at MPs and -3 Imps at teams.

[keylime]

An interesting treatment is used here locally - it bases responses over 2NT on losers instead of feature or HCP/suit length:

2M-2NT:

3♣ - 5 card suit
3♦ - 6 card suit, 8 losers
3♥ - 6 card suit, 7 losers
3♠ - 6/7 card suit, maximum hand, near opening strength

[mishovnbg]

inquiry, on Mar 17 2004, 03:13 AM, said:

mishovnbg, on Mar 16 2004, 01:08 PM, said:

Spoiler

--------------------------

Hi Ben, Ron and Richard!

I respect you all! But I think you are misleaded here! Probably because 26 cards example... List of my thoughts:

Hi Misho,

As a general rule, I don't think advocating opening some of the hands below that you proposed in your response is something we should do in a beginner's thread, but here you go... real world issues....

Scoring: IMP

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South hand has 2.5 quick tricks, 6 losers, and by Goren point count or ZAR point count an easy opening bid of 1♠. I think hoping parnter has an opening one bid when he opens two is not a good strategy. I think even many beginners and most intermediates would judge that hand as worth an opening bid.

This next hand is closer. Some people just will not open a 7 hcp hand, the reasons are varied, but among them is that some places have an 8 hcp minimum for a legal opening bid. But if you can open rule of 20 (heck rule of 18) this hand is a clear opening bids (don't go passing with 6-5 hands if you can find a reason to bid)...

Scoring: IMP

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ZAR Points? This one is loaded.. 7hcp + 3 control + 11 legnth + 5 long-short=26, just enough to open one ♠

Scoring: IMP

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This one is even better than the last one, worth ZAR 27 (7hcp, 3 controls, 10 legnth, 7 long minus short)

Scoring: IMP

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Ok.. this is hand that just barely meets the opening bid requierments on ZAR points (7+3+10+6), but I would open 2♠ instead of 1 on. I just don't like the weak seven card suit That much..

Note games all make because your partner had an opening hand in your examples.

Dear beginner/intermediate players, please forget Ben's "opening" hands, at least untill you become an experts . Also please don't count AK in long suits(6+cards) as 2 defensive/QT tricks, because theese nasty opps tend to be short in your long suits and like to ruff your "tricks" sometimes . And finally have an instinct of self-preservation and do not open in vul -3(-4) from hand, like 2♠ with AKxxxx,xxx,xx,xx, except you llike to make a gift to opps or hate your partner. Do not take expert's words like Ben's ones all time as truth, include mine , because they too often change their mind. If you like to have a prove, you can look a post about "old man Rado" and see what you must have to bid weak 2 in vul. I will not give you shortcut to this Rado's post, because searching between all his posts and reading them will be entertainment for you .

Spoiler

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Your friend Misho

[inquiry]

Thank you so much kind friend, for pointing out that advocating to begineers and intermediates opening with a 1 level bid with the hands you made up for opener is not something we should be advocating.. Oh wait, I ALREADY DID THAT in my post, where I said....

Quote

As a general rule, I don't think advocating opening some of the hands below that you proposed in your response is something we should do in a beginner's thread,

[Onedown]

with my soft values the only bid I see here is 3S ---I can conceive the Opps can make game in Hearts, Diamonds or Clubs as my defensive values are questionable, but it would take an aggressive bidder to bid over 3S when we are holding at least 1/2 the deck in HCP.
I pass if they bid 4Hs and if they get to a minor game I pass and bemoan my fate...