[kenberg]

I suppose that after a 15-17 1N opening a jump th 3H be second hand is played as preemptive. How about against lesser strength NT openings?

Playing pick-up the auction began 1N(13-15)-(3H). I am fourth seat. We are vul, they are not. I am neither rich nor broke. I am considering my options when my rho puts in a penalty double. OK, that lets me off the hook for this hand but I realize that I am not so sure what is reasonably thought of as default against 13-15 or 12-14 (or less) nt openings.

Your opinion? Both as to what you think is defualt and what you think is best?

[barmar]

Against weak NT, I think most recommend that you should have a good hand to make a 2-level overcall (using whatever methods you use), because you may still have a game. So there's no reason to jump to show a strong hand, and this should be purely preemptive.

[jtfanclub]

I don't know that the definitions are mutually exclusive.

I use a 3♥ overcall to mean the same thing as a 3rd hand 3♥ opening, which can be very wide ranging. I'm not going to have a 15 count for it, but

Axx
AKxxxxx
xx
x

is not out of the question, for example.

[rogerclee]

A hand which has a lot of offense but not enough defense to defend anything doubled.

Something like x ♥KJT9xxx ♦KQJx ♣x seems reasonable.

[pclayton]

To me, 13-15 is still weak.

A jump overcall shows a hand slightly too good for a 2♥ overcall, something like a great 14 to 17.

It doesn't make sense to double 1N with a one suiter of this strength.

[han]

Preemptive against a strong notrump, good playing strength opposite a weak notrump.

[kenberg]

If I read these responses correctly there seems to be a divergence of views. The last three seem to suggest that I, as fourth hand, might well consider raising to 4 with, say, the A of something and the King of hearts. Or some such. The ace of something and the Q of hearts would give a play opposite Roger Clee's holding although of course I might lose two diamonds unless the ace is in diamonds. So at least holding slightly more than my side ace and a fitting honor it seems 4H is the right call. Earlier responses, I think, are such that this would be suicidal if my partner is playing their way.

My fourth hand holding was modest and I probably was not going to raise (good choice!) but I was giving it consideration.

Thanks. I encounter weak NTs more often online than I do locally in f2f. Anyone wish to suggest a good defensive structure? Your own or, more easily for you, a link? Currently I just use either Capp or Natural and I suppose one should adjust to the different circumstances.

[P_Marlowe]

Against 12-14 / 13-15, I would still play
it as preemptive.
And for memory reaason, against a weaker
NT opening as well.

A direct 1-suiter overcall should already
show constructive values, i.e. 10-15HCP.

Because of frequency issues, I dont think
it makes sense to play 3H as +16HCP and
a 6 carder.
But maybe you can play it as a strong
specific 2-suiter.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[awm]

pclayton, on Mar 21 2008, 12:31 PM, said:

It doesn't make sense to double 1N with a one suiter of this strength.

Why?

Opening side will rarely sit the double, and if they do you can lead your suit and probably have better chances of setting for a big number than if you held some balanced 16. If they bid on then you can name your suit.

Wouldn't it be sad if you have ♥KQJxxxx and out, and have to pass because 2♥ shows a better hand and 3♥ shows a much better hand, and you hear 1NT-P-4♠-P/O when every other table is taking a 5♥ sacrifice? Or maybe you hear 1NT-P-3♠ showing 31(45) and opponents make an accurate slam decision in a minor when over 1NT-3♥ they would be jammed, probably try a negative double and maybe end up in game in a spade moysian?

I suppose you get some advantage by reserving "double then bid" for a really huge one-suiter, and I'm sure every time they open 1NT and you have a twenty-count with a long suit and need to figure out whether to bid 6♥ this style wins... but you really don't get shapely twenty-counts that often after opponents open 1NT (even if their notrump range is 9-11).

[pclayton]

awm, on Mar 24 2008, 07:49 AM, said:

pclayton, on Mar 21 2008, 12:31 PM, said:

It doesn't make sense to double 1N with a one suiter of this strength.

Why?

Opening side will rarely sit the double, and if they do you can lead your suit and probably have better chances of setting for a big number than if you held some balanced 16. If they bid on then you can name your suit.

Wouldn't it be sad if you have ♥KQJxxxx and out, and have to pass because 2♥ shows a better hand and 3♥ shows a much better hand, and you hear 1NT-P-4♠-P/O when every other table is taking a 5♥ sacrifice? Or maybe you hear 1NT-P-3♠ showing 31(45) and opponents make an accurate slam decision in a minor when over 1NT-3♥ they would be jammed, probably try a negative double and maybe end up in game in a spade moysian?

I suppose you get some advantage by reserving "double then bid" for a really huge one-suiter, and I'm sure every time they open 1NT and you have a twenty-count with a long suit and need to figure out whether to bid 6♥ this style wins... but you really don't get shapely twenty-counts that often after opponents open 1NT (even if their notrump range is 9-11).

I'm more concerned with when we make a penalty double with a long suit and pard hits their runout. We almost always have to pull. OTOH, if I make a descriptive overcall, I can comfortably pass pard's penalty double.

Quote

Wouldn't it be sad if you have ♥KQJxxxx and out?

Not really. I'm a lot more sad if I double with AKJxxx x AQx Qxx and I'm forced to guess over 4♥ after I double and my opponent holds that hand and bounces over his pard's weak NT.

[barmar]

If you have a good 1-suiter, game is still a possibility over a weak NT. If you're vulnerable, you want to look for the game rather than just setting them in 1NT.

[jtfanclub]

barmar, on Mar 24 2008, 03:16 PM, said:

If you have a good 1-suiter, game is still a possibility over a weak NT. If you're vulnerable, you want to look for the game rather than just setting them in 1NT.

I don't think setting them in 1NT is the issue.

The two example hands so far are...

Axx AKxxxxx xx x

x ♥KJT9xxx ♦KQJx ♣x

In both cases, game is very possible even if it was a 16-18 1NT.

The problem is, when 4♥ is there, the partner of the 1NT bidder has not many points and not many hearts. If you leap to 3♥ right away, you'll probably shut out the partner of the 1NT bidder. If you X, they will almost certainly compete.