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Play 4H nice line

#1 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2008-March-20, 04:19

This came up in a match last night. I think it's quite a sweet hand if you haven't seen this type of play before.

Scoring: IMP

1 1
2 2
3 3
3NT 4


You show a (very mild) slam try opposite doubleton heart support and play in 4H

(you always raise rather than bid 2C on minimum hands with 3-card support so partner's preference shows a doubleton).

LHO leads the jack of spades, queen, king and you duck.
RHO switches to a low trump. You win with the ace and LHO plays the jack.
Plan the play.
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#2 User is offline   effervesce 

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Posted 2008-March-20, 04:54

Looks like 1 spade loser and 1 heart loser if you decide to ruff a spade (just in case the J was a falsecard). To make you need to hold a diamond loser to one - lead a small diamond from dummy? If king diamonds is onside you still make, while making it difficult for east to duck with Kx.
Ming

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#3 User is offline   655321 

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Posted 2008-March-20, 05:20

effervesce, on Mar 20 2008, 05:54 AM, said:

Looks like 1 spade loser and 1 heart loser if you decide to ruff a spade (just in case the J was a falsecard). To make you need to hold a diamond loser to one - lead a small diamond from dummy? If king diamonds is onside you still make, while making it difficult for east to duck with Kx.

Spoiler

That's impossible. No one can give more than one hundred percent. By definition that is the most anyone can give.
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#4 User is offline   effervesce 

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Posted 2008-March-20, 05:42

655321, on Mar 20 2008, 06:20 AM, said:

effervesce, on Mar 20 2008, 05:54 AM, said:

Looks like 1 spade loser and 1 heart loser if you decide to ruff a spade (just in case the J was a falsecard). To make you need to hold a diamond loser to one - lead a small diamond from dummy? If king diamonds is onside you still make, while making it difficult for east to duck with Kx.

Spoiler

Playing for anything else, like endplaying east seems a less likely line to work.
Ming

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#5 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2008-March-20, 05:51

effervesce, on Mar 20 2008, 12:42 PM, said:

655321, on Mar 20 2008, 06:20 AM, said:

effervesce, on Mar 20 2008, 05:54 AM, said:

Looks like 1 spade loser and 1 heart loser if you decide to ruff a spade (just in case the J was a falsecard). To make you need to hold a diamond loser to one - lead a small diamond from dummy? If king diamonds is onside you still make, while making it difficult for east to duck with Kx.

Spoiler

Playing for anything else, like endplaying east seems a less likely line to work.

Keep thinking!

If the Jack of hearts is a true card (and as 655321 points out it is a very unlikely falsecard as it may cost a trump trick), you have a close to 100% line available for 10 tricks.

p.s. don't feel put upon, I'm pleased you are thinking and responding, I know it can be a bit tough in public but it's a good learning for anyone who hasn't seen this type of play before.
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#6 User is offline   rogerclee 

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Posted 2008-March-20, 06:00

I felt great the first time I found a play like this at the table.

In my opinion, this is a really good problem for B/I players to think about.
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#7 User is offline   jocdelevat 

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Posted 2008-March-20, 06:13

we need a 10 trick which should be in diamonds. I play trump to 10 then ace diamond. come back in hand with spade. take the rest of trumps out and play small to q diamond.
It's not what you are, it's how you say it!

best regards
jocdelevat
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#8 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2008-March-20, 06:36

Spoiler

Nice problem. Thanks.
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#9 User is offline   effervesce 

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Posted 2008-March-20, 06:38

jocdelevat, on Mar 20 2008, 07:13 AM, said:

we need a 10 trick which should be in diamonds. I play trump to 10 then ace diamond. come back in hand with spade. take the rest of trumps out and play small to q diamond.

Um... lose to the K, J diamonds is setting trick?
Ming

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#10 User is offline   effervesce 

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Posted 2008-March-20, 06:40

y66, on Mar 20 2008, 07:36 AM, said:

Spoiler

Nice problem. Thanks.

You're right. Didnt think of that line :ph34r:
Ming

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#11 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2008-March-20, 06:49

FrancesHinden, on Mar 20 2008, 11:19 AM, said:

You show a (very mild) slam try opposite doubleton heart support and play in 4H

(you always raise rather than bid 2C on minimum hands with 3-card support so partner's preference shows a doubleton).

Nice hand. Appreciate that the play is the point (and has been thrashed out above), but just a small point on the bidding: Why has North shown precisely doubleton Heart? I agree with raising on 3 cards with a minimum, but with more than a minimum but short of a GF reverse and holding 1-3-5-4 shape I would normally temporise with 2C and back in with H support later. 3H would have been forcing (I think), or perhaps you say not and would bid 4H with that? Also I think I would have bid 2N rather than 3H on the hand in question, although I appreciate that changing Qx of Spades into xx and I would not.
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#12 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2008-March-20, 06:55

1eyedjack, on Mar 20 2008, 01:49 PM, said:

Why has North shown precisely doubleton Heart? I agree with raising on 3 cards with a minimum, but with more than a minimum but short of a GF reverse and holding 1-3-5-4 shape I would normally temporise with 2C and back in with H support later. 3H would have been forcing (I think), or perhaps you say not and would bid 4H with that? Also I think I would have bid 2N rather than 3H on the hand in question, although I appreciate that changing Qx of Spades into xx and I would not.

yes, you are quite right - we play 2S as game forcing so when opener bid 3H he could at that point have had a non-minimum 1-3-5-4. Of course that was no longer possible after the 3NT bid and the pass of 4H.

2NT is not unreasonable on the hand instead, but we feel we have been even more descriptive by first bidding 3H, then 3NT over 3S. For us, the 3S bid over 3H isn't natural (I needed to bid 3S over 2C to show a game forcing major 2-suiter) but is re-4th-suit, typically looking for half a stop for 3NT (although here an advance cue for hearts).
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#13 User is offline   skjaeran 

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Posted 2008-March-20, 07:30

Nice elopement hand. They come up at times.
Kind regards,
Harald
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#14 User is offline   vuroth 

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Posted 2008-March-20, 08:14

Looks like an endplay position, but I'm not sure I can make it happen.

Low to T, back to A, draw trump. Exit with a .

If I get a back, exit with the Q, and hope to endplay E if he had 3 and the K. (If the Q is ducked I claim.)

If I get a back, duck in dummy. If the Q wins I claim. If E has the K, he's endplayed if he returns a minor. If he returns a , I'm down to the finesse If W had the K, I'm down to the finesse.

If I get a back from W, duck. If E wins with the K, I make. If E wins with the J and returns a , I make. If E wins with the J and returns a , I'm down to the finesse.

I think.

Now to go check the right answer.

V
Still decidedly intermediate - don't take my guesses as authoritative.

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#15 User is offline   vuroth 

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Posted 2008-March-20, 08:23

y66, on Mar 20 2008, 07:36 AM, said:

Spoiler

Nice problem. Thanks.

Gah. Nice problem. Easy if you count winners, hard to find if you're counting losers like I was...
Still decidedly intermediate - don't take my guesses as authoritative.

"gwnn" said:

rule number 1 in efficient forum reading:
hanp does not always mean literally what he writes.
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#16 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-March-20, 12:04

Very nice problem, although I don't like the 3H bid.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#17 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2008-March-20, 12:30

This technique is known as an elopement: one plays to 'elope' with one's small trumps.

It is probably the easiest technique of all described in the famous Kelsey/Ottlik Adventures in Card Play.

Described by some as the most advanced book on play ever written, it is a joy to read and reread. Immaterial threats, backwash squeezes and so on. I wouldn't advise a beginner to read it, but any advancing intermediate or better should (imo) get the book because it will open your eyes to some of the astounding possibilities in card play, and it is the type of book that one can reread every couple of years... and the better you get, the more enjoyable to reread.. again, imo.
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