[geofspa]

Scoring: Rubber

---

Sitting South I was dealt the hand shown above. I know 4441 hands are awkward but this 24 HCP 4144 did give me pause for thought, what should I open after 2 passes?

My thoughts are that I might open:-

2NT - sort of discounting the singleton ♥K ... It has been known for me to open NT on 4441 hands in the past.

2♣ - showing a balanced 23+ or a game forcing hand... But what do I bid when my passed partner bids a waiting 2♦.

3NT - well that was out as we had agreed a gambling NT convention showing 8 solid tricks in a minor with nothing outside.

In the end I did open 2♣ and after the expected 2♦ from partner I bid 3♦ ...YUCK!

You thoughts on how I might have opened this one would be appreciated.

Geof

ps I will post the full hand, bidding and the outcome later.

[jtfanclub]

I would bid 2♣ followed by 2NT myself. If I had:

AKQ8
7
AKQ8
KQJ7

I would bid 2♣ followed by 2♠, to give partner the maximum amount of space.

[hrothgar]

I'd be shocked if there wasn't near unanimous consensus to treat this as a balanced 24 count and use the (appropriate) section of the NT ladder.

Different people have different methods to show 24 balanced

Most will open 2♣.

Some will rebid 2NT over 2♦. Others use a convention called "Kokish" over a waiting 2♦ response. These folks will bid 2♥ which forces partner to bid 2♠ and then rebid 2NT.

For what its worth, I suspect that folks will bid precisely the same with jtfanclub's example hand that has a small x in Hearts rather than the stiff King. Sure, they'd be happier with the stiff King. better yet, the Kx. But its better to lie by showing a balanced hand than distort the 2♠ response.

[inquiry]

I would probably start off like many people.. i would open 2♣ and I would rebid 2NT, but my bidding would have quite a different meaning than those of other posters...

My follow up is given in this thread: Strong three suiters

IF i didn't have such agreements, i would treat this as a balanced 24.

[inquiry]

Jlall, on Mar 5 2008, 03:00 PM, said:

Even if I could treat this hand as a 3 suiter I would not. I think that balanced is a much better description, and I think partner misevaluates too much when we show a stiff with our stiff K. This is the same reason a lot of people don't splinter with a stiff king and wouldn't open a precision 2D with KJxx Axxx K QJxx playing precision, etc.

Well, it will be interesting to see how the hand might turn out when geofspa post the rest of the hand. The 2NT bid as a three suiter is made over 2D/2H/or 2S response (And partner will not have AJ9xxx of hearts or AQxxxx of hearts or these auctions).

I can predict where this auction is going... If partner bid 2♦, then odds are great he will bid 3♣ over 2NT, and this hand will bid 4♦ to show short heart and 2-3 "losers". Partner can bid 4♥ to find out what I hold, and i would bid 4♠ to show 4-1-4-4 and "three losers". If partner is curious, he can bid 4NT to ask controls, I would respond to that 5♥ to show "8" (A=2, K=1). If partner is still curious he can bid 5NT to ask me to bid the cheapest suit in which I lack a queen. I bid 6♠ promising the minor suit queens. One doesn't want to get to a grand in a 4-4 fit missing the queen of trumps.

Of course, partner doesn't have to use all, or any, of these asking bids. Once i have shown short hearts and 3 losers, he may sign off. He can also sign off in 4NT over my 4♦ response if that is his wish (parnter likely two tricks in his hand to use 2♦ and 3♣ as his first two bids, see below.

The auction from 2NT might not go this way. For one thing, partner might have responded 2♥ or 2♠. If he did, then a 3♣ bid by him is natural and non-forcing, but is rather scrambling. Even over a 2♦ initial response, 3♦ and 3♥ over 2NT show only one trick and are meant as scrambling too.

Over 2c-2d-2n-3d = i bid 5D
over 2c-2d-2n-3h = i bid 3NT (partner knows i have spades should we have fit there)

There is one more auction to consider, partner might bid 3NT over 2NT. This shows diamonds and at least two tricks. On this one, I will bid to at least 6♦'s. With my diamond holding, however, 3NT rebid by partner is essentially impossible.

[Echognome]

Ben - THIS IS BIL!!

Why should it be ok for me to respond saying "I open a strong club and relay out p's shape. WTP?"

Playing a standard natural system, I'm going to go along with 2♣ rebid 2NT.

[inquiry]

Echognome, on Mar 5 2008, 03:41 PM, said:

Ben - THIS IS BIL!!

Why should it be ok for me to respond saying "I open a strong club and relay out p's shape. WTP?"

Playing a standard natural system, I'm going to go along with 2♣ rebid 2NT.

whoops... well i said if not playing those methods i would treat as balanced hand 24 points... all the bil members can be assumed to be playing not those methods....

[cherdano]

Jlall, on Mar 5 2008, 02:00 PM, said:

Even if I could treat this hand as a 3 suiter I would not. I think that balanced is a much better description, and I think partner misevaluates too much when we show a stiff with our stiff K. This is the same reason a lot of people don't splinter with a stiff king and wouldn't open a precision 2D with KJxx Axxx K QJxx playing precision, etc.

While that is true, you will also find many minor suit slams if you show the 3-suiter that you won't find if you show a balanced hand. I think if I was still wasting 2C-2D-2N for 3-suiters, then I would use it on this hand.
(Your precision example is different, of course, as the odds are much higher that it is a 3N-or-not-decision instead of a slam decision.)

[skjaeran]

I'd open this 2NT 22-24 with my regular.

With most pick-ups I'd show the same hand by opening 2♣ and rebidding 2NT if allowed.

[awm]

One option that hasn't been mentioned is to open 1♦! This is often a good idea with 4144 hands. The idea is that if partner doesn't pass you are often in good shape, you have lots of space to show all of your suits. If partner does pass, you are only sometimes missing a game; often 3NT will fail when opponents lead your singleton and you need a lot of points to make (say) 5m on a 4-4 fit.

On the actual hand I'll agree with pretending it's balanced and bidding 2♣ followed by 2NT to show "balanced 22-24." But if the heart king were a small heart I'd open 1♦ for sure. I don't really like opening notrump with a small singleton as it seems too often partner transfers me into that suit...

[inquiry]

Since you make game opposite some trash like...

xxxx xxx xxxx xx

Opening 1♦ doesn't seem like a winner to me (lose 1S, 1H, 1C in 4S on 3-2 trump split), with or without the heart king. However, i admit that likewise if you open 2C=2D=2NT, you likely end up in 3S making an overtrick or stick in 2NT probably losing at least 5 hearts and a club.

[han]

Agree with inquiry that opening 1♦ is very poor. Not only may it be a small disaster when it goes all pass but, more importantly, you will never be able to show the strength of your hand. 2C followed by 2NT seems really clear.

inquiry, on Mar 5 2008, 03:33 PM, said:

Well, it will be interesting to see  how the hand might turn out when geofspa post the rest of the hand. The 2NT bid as a three suiter is made over 2D/2H/or 2S response (And partner will not have AJ9xxx of hearts or AQxxxx of hearts or these auctions).

Surely looking at both hands you will be able to give an auction that shows how your gadget leads you to the top spot. Great system.

[inquiry]

han, on Mar 5 2008, 05:34 PM, said:

Surely looking at both hands you will be able to give an auction that shows how your gadget leads you to the top spot. Great system.

Which is why i explained how the auction could go... all controlled by responder... people can see for themselves... it might not work... but it usually does.

[jillybean]

Echognome, on Mar 5 2008, 01:41 PM, said:

Ben - THIS IS BIL!!

Why should it be ok for me to respond saying "I open a strong club and relay out p's shape. WTP?"

Playing a standard natural system, I'm going to go along with 2♣ rebid 2NT.

Gmone - THIS IS THE BIBD!!

Agree 2♣/2nt