[42]

Hi! I would like you to take away my doubts

You sit on South:

Scoring: IMP

---

System: precision
Bidding: (pass) 1♦* (1♥) ??
*may be doubleton

To bid or not to bid is the question (and why).
Ty!
Caren

[inquiry]

Hi Caren,

I would bid. The "standard" bid with this hand, I think is DBL, to show minimum bidding values and support for the two unbid suits (in this case ♠ and ♣). If you play your negative doubles this way, the double gets the entire hand off your chest at once. And you turn the further competitive bidding on this hand over to your partner. That is, you never bid again unless forced.

Some people, myself included, do not play this hand as a negative double hand. If your RHO opponent had passed what would have responded to your partner's 1♦ opening bid? You would have bid 1♠. Since you can still bid 1♠, this is what I would choose to do. For me, 1♠ here neither promises nor denies anything more than a 1♠ bid would have meant if my RHO had passed. If I bid 1♠ with this hand, what would 1♥X show for me? First my double would have denied the ability to bid 1♠, second it would have shown a minimum hand worthy of a response, and third it would have shown interest in ♣ but may include ♣ and some modest ♦ support.

But one thing for sure, if you pass with this hand, and your LHO raises to some number of ♥ (2 or 3), it will be too late and too risky to enter the bidding on the next round of bidding. So figure out if you and your partner double with this hand or bid 1♠ with this hand and then bid while it is still safe (and sane) to do so at the one level.

Ben

[helium]

mee too X

[WGF_Flame]

1. You shoud have an agrement with your p for how much hcp does negetive D shows, the normal (atleast for me is 8 hcp) so this one is too weak for it.
2. In cases of a close decision you should know what things inc u to D and what to pass. one importent idea here is your heart lengh (their suit) the shorter u are the less u should double, the idea is when u are long in hearts, your partner tends to be short, and therfore will have an easy double of his own even with a minimum hand, while when u are short ur p with 3-4 heart will need extras to reopen the bidding. in this exmple u got 3 time heart which isnt short and this also inc you to pass.
so my answer is PASS.

[Free]

Dbl, no doubt

[paulg]

Firstly I would bid ... so it's just a question of what. In SAYC a negative double in this auction guarantees 4 spades (with 1♠ showing 5+) - if you have similar agreements in your version of Precision then you are forced to double.

Personally I have similar views to Ben, so would happily bid 1♠ here.

I would add that I'm not thinking of bidding 1NT - partner can only hold 11-12 if balanced so the vulnerability is wrong for us to playing in that contract.

[luis]

Double.
I'd like to have a better suit to bid 1s.

[the hog]

I would certainly bid 1S. I play my sputnik doubles like Ben; to x denies 4S.

[luke warm]

i like either double or pass tho i'm leaning toward double... i think it comes in handy to be able to show either 4 or 5 spades in this sequence, and the x vs. the bid does that

[42]

Hi again!
I (when I play with myself ) play that x shows 4 ♠s and 1♠ shows 5 in this situation. A many times German champion once told me that it is bad not to bid 1♠ with 4 ♠s with Ben's arguments. But in this hand I had the idea that it must be good to show at least 8 cards, not 4+, and the ♠s were lousy.
But other questions come up: implies bidding here also a proposition for a sacrifice over 4♥? Do I think that 4♥ will have good prospects and we should bid 4♠? Is it better to bid and hope that opps now think game is unlikely or is it better to pass and hope opps do not find 4♥? Who is captain, N with a limited hand, or S?
Greetings,
Caren

[Chamaco]

Hi all
I think this hand arose when I was playing with Caren (42) on BBO.
1♦ was a Precision opener.

My own requirements for neg X are based on the suggestions by Bergen:

a good 6/7+hcp if I force p to bid at level 1
8+ hcp if I force p to bid at level 2
a good 9/10+ hcp if I force p to bid at level 3
a good 11/12+ at higher level.

This hand not only has only 7 hcp and not 8 (admittely with a few 9's).
It has Kxx in opps suit, which cannot be viewed, IMO, as 3 hcp.
So I'd reevaluate the hand to 4/5 hcp at most after the 1♥ overcall.

With that hand I'd much prefer 1NT: the risk is missing a major fit, but describes more accurately the hcp content.
----------------------------------------------------

Anyway we ended up playing 4♠ because of my fault, not Caren's !

[inquiry]

Well, the ♥K should not be dismissed so quickly, it is behind the overcaller after all. Sure, your RHO might have bid 1♥ on a suit headed by the Q instead of the A, but in the long run, the king is "well-placed" here. So to drop this hand to the 4 point range especially with good 9's in your long suits, seems a radical downard evaluation. Against that, your partner on a good day will have 15 hcp and could have less. You might therefore choose the tamer pass, planning on balancing back with a takeout double if the bidding goes
1♦ (1♥)-P-(2♥)
Pass-(P)-?

Still, a think a 1♠ or dbl here is right. Now to 42's comments there is no way in heck I am thinking about taking a sacrafice over 4♥ as I prepare to bid over 1♥. What do I know already? We have between 18 and 23 hcp in our hand combined...so they have between 22 and 17 hcp. My hand is "balanced" and I have 3 ♥ including the king. Should they have a ♥ fit, my ♥K may win a trick on defense (give partner a singleton ♥ while not give us an extra trick on offense). In spade, we have at most an 8 card fit, in ♥ they have at most a ten card fit. Points evenly split, at most 18 "trumps", no I would not be thinking about about sacrafice. In fact, at this moment, my thought at mp is if they do bid 4♥, I will try to maximize my score by doubling.

Now to the general question of does bidding here imply taking a sacrafice? No, not unless you preempt here over 1♥. Your bid here is to try compete for the partscore or find your best game. The real question is if you double and your RHO bids 2♥ and your partner bids 2♠ and your LHO bids 3♥ what do you bid? Here I would like to think about double (and if they are vul, I might consider it at MP, but we are vul), but the truth is they probably have a 9 card fit and we have an 8 card fit. I will pass. Partner is captain and I have dead minimum so I will let him decide what to do.

As an aside, how does your partner know to apply the law of total tricks if you overcall 1♠ on this hand? Let's imagine the following bidding...

1♦-(1♥)-1♠-(2♥)
2♠-(3♥)-Pass *

Here your partner's 2♠ bid promised 4 card support (support dbl not used), so when you pass 3♥, your partner will assume that YOU applied the LOTT and passed because your 1♠ was based upon a 4 card suit.

Ben

[42]

I started this topic because I felt guilty for misleading p. Recently a very good player and partner here in my area asked me why I am such an aggressive bidder in some situations and we figured out that it is because I do not like beeing compared with the "clubaunties" and therefore bid like men do (or what I think they do...) . Mauro, I had my doubts about MY hand, I did not want to blame you in any case!
I think my big mistake was not to double when the bidding proceeded:
(pass) 1♦ (1♥) D
(3♥) 3♠ (4♥), which I passed (auntily...)
I find it very helpfull to discuss general problems and getting so many detailed answers here. Thank you all!
Caren

[inquiry]

42, on Mar 2 2004, 10:04 AM, said:

I started this topic because I felt guilty for misleading p. Recently a very good player and partner here in my area asked me why I am such an aggressive bidder in some situations and we figured out that it is because I do not like beeing compared with the "clubaunties" and therefore bid like men do (or what I think they do...) . Mauro, I had my doubts about MY hand, I did not want to blame you in any case!
I think my big mistake was not to double when the bidding proceeded:
(pass) 1♦ (1♥) D
(3♥) 3♠ (4♥), which I passed (auntily...)
I find it very helpfull to discuss general problems and getting so many detailed answers here. Thank you all!
Caren

Yes, when your partner freely bid 3♥ over 3♠, I would have surely doubled with your hand when they bid 4♥. If your partner is very offensive (♥void, great ♦ suit), he might very well pull this to 4♠ (but then he probably would have bid 4♠ immediately). A guess, is your partner has 4S-1H-and (54) in the minors (either way), or 6♦ and 3♣.

At matchpoints, double should be your friend... if they aren't making a few doubled contracts against you, you are not doubling enough... :-)

Ben

[WGF_Flame]

inquiry, on Mar 2 2004, 10:33 AM, said:

42, on Mar 2 2004, 10:04 AM, said:

I started this topic because I felt guilty for misleading p. Recently a very good player and partner here in my area asked me why I am such an aggressive bidder in some situations and we figured out that it is because I do not like beeing compared with the "clubaunties" and therefore bid like men do (or what I think they do...) . Mauro, I had my doubts about MY hand, I did not want to blame you in any case!
I think my big mistake was not to double when the bidding proceeded:
(pass)  1♦  (1♥) D
(3♥)    3♠  (4♥), which I passed (auntily...)
I find it very helpfull to discuss general problems and getting so many detailed answers here. Thank you all!
Caren

Yes, when your partner freely bid 3♥ over 3♠, I would have surely doubled with your hand when they bid 4♥. If your partner is very offensive (♥void, great ♦ suit), he might very well pull this to 4♠ (but then he probably would have bid 4♠ immediately). A guess, is your partner has 4S-1H-and (54) in the minors (either way), or 6♦ and 3♣.

At matchpoints, double should be your friend... if they aren't making a few doubled contracts against you, you are not doubling enough... :-)

Ben

Id wouldt take my p 3sp for anything that incarage my double, on the contrary, also with such a weak hand i wouldnt double if i already showed a better hand with the first D.

[inquiry]

Quote

Id wouldt take my p 3sp for anything that incarage my double, on the contrary, also with such a weak hand i wouldnt double if i already showed a better hand with the first D.

I hope that you are not being robbed blind at the bridge table with such a passive attitude. In fact, I think double is a standout at matchpoints with this hand, although many will disagree with me. While you are correct that you are not strong for the bidding (very minimum in fact), you should realize that this is matchpoints after all. After your partner's 3♠ bid, you clearly own half the deck in hcp, if not more. Your partner overbid your "lawful level" by one when he bid 3♠, and with 4♠ he only did so because he had extra values. The total trick count is eight "trumps" for you in spades (partner didn't open 1♠) and probably 9 for them in ♥. IF they have bid a 20 HCP or less 4♥ that is making, your double will not cost you much at all, as you are not getting many matchpoints anyways. But if could actually have made 2 or 3♠. How good is +50 or +100 going to be for you? Not good at all. You simply must double with this hand on this auction imho, to protect your possible +140.

Do my opponents make doubled contracts against me when I double like this? You bet they do. But they go down much more frequently than they make. And on this hand, I believe we surely can make 2♠ when partner bids 3♠ (we may or maybe not making 3). So I will back my gut feeling and double and lead a ♦. On this hand, I would actually double at imps too.

Ben

[Chamaco]

inquiry, on Mar 2 2004, 02:29 PM, said:

Well, the ♥K should not be dismissed so quickly, it is behind the overcaller after all. Sure, your RHO might have bid 2♥ on a suit headed by the Q instead of the A, but in the long run, the king is "well-placed" here. So to drop this hand to the 4 point range especially with good 9's in your long suits, seems a radical downard evaluation. Against that, your partner on a good day will have 15 hcp and could have less.
-----------------------------

Partner is captain and I have dead minimum so I will let him decide what to do.

Hi Ben,
just my thoughts: it is nice to have experts correct my hand evaluation, that would not happen often at my local club !

What do you think of the following considerations ?

The K may be onside and that probably make this simply a bad 7 count (actually 6.7 according to the Kaplan Rubens hand evaluator, or 6+ Kleinman points - http://www.gg.caltec.../~jeff/knr.cgi).
Yet I think that if pard does not have extras, it is better to defend because:

1) the hand is aceless
2) most values are Q, J and 9s. These values usually take more tricks in defense.
3) The only major honor is Kxx in the opps suit: even if it takes a trick, it won't help developing other tricks.
4) Playing Precision, I want my pard toi show 8+ hcp or at least a *very good* 7, not a *bad* seven count. I do not like the policy to bid with submininmal values in direct seat just for the fear of losing a major suit partscore.
It is not the same to make a negative double with a 6/7 count or with a 8/9 count, especially when opener is limited to 15. I believe it is healthier to wait for pard to reopen. If the same hand were a 7 count but with one Ace, then I would have doubled happily
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For Caren
Do not worry, I do not consider this thread as a "who's to blame" thing , only a way to improve my hand evaluation, exactly as you !

[WGF_Flame]

inquiry, on Mar 2 2004, 01:22 PM, said:

Quote

Id wouldt take my p 3sp for anything that incarage my double, on the contrary, also with such a weak hand i wouldnt double if i already showed a better hand with the first D.

I hope that you are not being robbed blind at the bridge table with such a passive attitude. In fact, I think double is a standout at matchpoints with this hand, although many will disagree with me. While you are correct that you are not strong for the bidding (very minimum in fact), you should realize that this is matchpoints after all. After your partner's 3♠ bid, you clearly own half the deck in hcp, if not more. Your partner overbid your "lawful level" by one when he bid 3♠, and with 4♠ he only did so because he had extra values. The total trick count is eight "trumps" for you in spades (partner didn't open 1♠) and probably 9 for them in ♥. IF they have bid a 20 HCP or less 4♥ that is making, your double will not cost you much at all, as you are not getting many matchpoints anyways. But if could actually have made 2 or 3♠. How good is +50 or +100 going to be for you? Not good at all. You simply must double with this hand on this auction imho, to protect your possible +140.

Do my opponents make doubled contracts against me when I double like this? You bet they do. But they go down much more frequently than they make. And on this hand, I believe we surely can make 2♠ when partner bids 3♠ (we may or maybe not making 3). So I will back my gut feeling and double and lead a ♦. On this hand, I would actually double at imps too.

Ben

What i said is that the 3sp bid doesnt make my hand any better for diffense, on the contrary it makes it worst, in this sequence 3sp didnt show a stronger hand, it showed a more unbalanced hand. all the things u said about the tt might be true but doesnt p know about it too ?
about active and passive trust me i double too much, and im not a passive player, but in bridge bmost players including me, like to make an influence doesnt like to pass, like to play the hand and make a diffenrent, i advice you to remember that you got a partner hold your instincts to act and give him the respect that he know something, and when i got a 7 count for a bid that show 8 count and nothing else why should i double ? yes i got some good diffence factors like the K of hearts and a balance hand, is that enough i think not. about the TT again with all those bids it wont suprise me that much to see p with a 6-5 or 5-5 minimum which is why i said that the 3sp not only doesnt increge me to double but discarage me to double.

[inquiry]

Quote

just my thoughts: it is nice to have experts correct my hand evaluation, that would not happen often at my local club !

I am no expert, I don't even play one on TV, so feel free to totally ignore any advice I might give. Especially when it comes to precision auctions, you would be wise to take my advice with a grain of salt because I gave up precision quite a few years back because of uncertainty how to continue in low level competitive auctions where partner might, or might not have 1♦ after he opened that suit.

Quote

What do you think of the following considerations ?
The K may be onside and that probably make this simply a bad 7 count (actually 6.7 according to the Kaplan Rubens hand evaluator, or 6+ Kleinman points - http://www.gg.caltec.../~jeff/knr.cgi).

I think this evaluation at 6.7 points is actually an under-evaluation, but not by too much. The KR hand evaluator does not take position considerations of the honors into account. With your RHO bidding 1♥, and thus showing some real values, I think both the ♣K and the ♥K are slightly underevaluated by KR method. And assuming (this is a big assumption), that we have a black suit fit, I like my 9's. So I would think this 7 point hand is worth a solid 7.5 to 8 if I was going to have to give it a score.

Quote

1) the hand is aceless
2) most values are Q, J and 9s. These values usually take more tricks in defense.
3) The only major honor is Kxx in the opps suit: even if it takes a trick, it won't help developing other tricks.
4) Playing Precision, I want my pard toi show 8+ hcp or at least a *very good* 7, not a *bad* seven count. I do not like the policy to bid with submininmal values in direct seat just for the fear of losing a major suit partscore.
It is not the same to make a negative double with a 6/7 count or with a 8/9 count, especially when opener is limited to 15. I believe it is healthier to wait for pard to reopen. If the same hand were a 7 count but with one Ace, then I would have doubled happily

Well, each partnership surely has to decide what bidding style works best for them. When I got CC Wei's first precision book (pamplet might be more like it), it was clear that many 8 hcp hands were not worthy of a response to a precision 11-15 hcp opener. And many modern players actually lower the limit of their opening bids to 8 or 9 hcp so the don't bid rule with as few as 7 would be even stronger today than yesterday.

Having said that, and acknowledging that this is not a good hand for offense (or defense for that matter), I would still bid here. Reckless, wacky, maybe... but bridge is still a bidders game. As I said in my last reply you can pass, and if the bidding comes back to you in 2♥ you are safer doubling back in than in doubling or bidding 1♠ now. But on this hand, the points will be relatively evenly divided (20 +/- 2) on each side. Your opponents mayhave struck the first blow towards finding a fit with the 2♥ bid. This will be a partscore battle and if you don't bid now, you really may not get another chance.

As for the experts, in this thread you have one BBO Goldstar (luis) who recommended double, now there is a true expert for you. And one Topflight expert (helium) who recommended double, and two long time forcing club bidders who are "Experts" (free and The Hog) who also recommend taking some action other than double with this hand. I think if this was a BBO hand, you might check and see what others bid with this hand after 1♦, although most will not be opening a precision 1♦ I suspect. But the best style is whatever fits best for you. All I was saying is I would not discount the ♥K... it might be worth a sure trick, plus a sure stopper should you catch a magic hand for partner.. with ♣Ax, solid 7 ♦ and he jumps to 3♥, for instance...looking for 3NT if you can stop ♥.You can, and you have just enough tricks (well ♠ to ACE and ♥ through you if the ♥ACE is wrong isn't nice...but you know what I mean).

Ben

[WGF_Flame]

I agree with ben on the K of heart, its not a bad card after the 1h overcall. only later after the heart support it become p will not have more then 1 heart which make the king less importent for the offense. this mean that if we were on a forcing pass situation i would definetly double 4h, as it is not forcing (the way i play) i wouldnt double again.