[rbforster]

With a friend, I'm working on designing a transfer-oriented symmetric relay system over our strong club opening. We're considering the following significant departure from "standard" precision -

1♣-1♦ shows one of 3 classes of hands:
   1. any double negative 0-4
   2. most negatives 5-7 (but excludes most single suiters)
   3. any GF with hearts or hearts and a minor.

The idea for showing GF hearts hands in 1♦ should be fairly obvious - opener's 1♥ bid is cheap relay to inquire further as well as completing the "transfer." By using 1♦ for these GF hearts hands, we gain additional bidding space to resolve all typically resolved shapes at 3♠ or lower (improving over several other such systems which push to 3N or 4♣ on some 6-5's, 7-4's, etc). Our continuations are not too relevant here except for the negative one -

1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠    any negative hand (#1 or #2 above), 0-4 or 5-7 non-single-suited

After 1♠ showing most 0-7 hands, opener could make an artificial force with 2♣ showing a strong hand or bid naturally. In light of this combination of weak, intermediate, and GF hands in 1♦, I'm trying to give good meanings to opener's first round relay breaks (e.g. 1♣-1♦-not 1♥). The goals of these relay breaks are to

1. Avoid disrupting the GF relay when partner has a GF hearts hand too often
2. Help find the right strain when partner has a negative hand

For example, if opener has a long single suit he'll have an easy natural rebid after 1♠ negative (although clubs will have to be at the 3 level). So I'm not worried about relaying with 1♥ on these hands since any of the continuations seem fine.

In light of these goals, I was thinking of showing some of opener's awkward hands with hearts since 1) having hearts means responder is less likely to have a heart GF, and 2) these hands might reach the wrong strain if they wait to bid naturally over 1♠ negative. For example, I like these suggestions so far -

1♣-1♦-1NT  19-21 (bidding 1NT over 1♠ negative would be 16-18)
1♣-1♦-2♣  5+♣ and 4♥, min values
1♣-1♦-2♦  5+♦ and 4♥, min values

I'm less clear on what 1♠ or 2♥ (or higher) bids might want to mean. Other problem hands I can foresee are 4♠/5+♥, as well as any 3 suiter especially those with 5♣s (since their "natural" rebid would be 3♣ or an off-shape NT over 1♠ negative).

1♣-1♦-1♠  ?
1♣-1♦-2♥  ?
1♣-1♦-2♠+  ?

I welcome any comments or suggestions, both on our general approach and specifically on what might be good meanings to give to these relay breaks. Thanks!

[dake50]

Work this out well as I would use 1D may H-GF also to solve many other auction problem hands.

If it helps, the double neg 0-4hcp given 1C has 18+hcp occurs 1 hand per 325 responses to 1C 0.337%, so save little space for that.

[the hog]

Your 1D bid is far too open to pre emption. I don't like this at all.

[jwmonty]

dake50, on Jan 19 2008, 05:40 PM, said:

If it helps, the double neg 0-4hcp given 1C has 18+hcp occurs 1 hand per 325 responses to 1C 0.337%,  so save little space for that.

I don't know what you are thinking to say this. The "Mathematical Tables" article in the Encyclopedia of Bridge gives the probabilities of getting a particular number of high-card points in a random hand. The entries for 0, 1, 2, 3, and 4 HCP add up to 8.3%. And that's when the deal could be anything. When partner is known to have close to half the deck, the probability of your holding a very weak hand must be considerably higher, since there are fewer points left to be distributed among the other three hands.

[rbforster]

dake50, on Jan 19 2008, 05:40 PM, said:

Work this out well as I would use 1D may H-GF also to solve many other auction problem hands.

I hope to find something reasonable. I know this will be more vulnerable to preemption than a purely negative 1♦ (as The_Hog points out), but with a small and similar set of strong hand types hopefully it won't be too difficult for responder to balance in a competitive situation and have opener read things correctly. Besides, low level competition may make it easier for us to find the best strain than if we had to bid constructively on our own, or it might bail us out of a misfit.

Quote

If it helps, the double neg 0-4hcp given 1C has 18+hcp occurs 1 hand per 325 responses to 1C 0.337%,  so save little space for that.

I'm using 1♣ as 16+, but I got the unconditional probability of 0-4 as 8.86%, and surely it's higher when partner has a stronger than average hand. Still, the double negatives are fairly rare and will probably just pass opener's natural rebid almost all the time (or transfer over NT with a long suit). These don't get a lot of specific attention unless opener shows considerable extras.

Getting back to the problem originally posed, here are two different suggested structures to handle opener's hands. Perhaps those interested can comment on which they like better. Basically you can take your ambiguity sooner (instead of relaying) or later (after relaying).

Method 1, "DONT-style"
The idea here is to show minimum strength 2 suiters with hearts early rather than relaying (since responder is more likely weak in those cases).

1♣-1♦-?

1♥ relay (extras, min balanced, 6+ suit, or 5/4+ minors)
1♠ ♠+minor, unbalanced min (4-5 card suits)
1NT 19-21
2♣ ♣+♥, unbalanced min (4-5 card suits)
2♦ ♦+♥, unbalanced min (4-5 card suits)
2♥ ♥+♠, unbalanced min (4-5 card suits)
2♠ 6♠+/4♥, min

In the above cases, opener will have 5/4, 4/5, or 5/5 in the 2 suits. With a 6 card suit (including 6-4's), extras or both minors opener will make the 1♥ relay. 4441 hands are treated as balanced or 2 suited with discretion, so those hands might bid 1♠ or 2m with only 4/4.

After 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠ negative 0-7

1N 16-18 bal
2♣ extras, artificial 1-round force (~20+ unbalanced, 22+ balanced)
2♦ 6+
2♥ 6+
2♠ 6+
2N 5/5 or longer in both minors
3♣ 6+

Method 1 has the advantage that opener's rebids over 1♠ negative are very sound in terms of promising a 6+ suit. The disadvantage is that when opener makes a 2-suited bid, there will usually be a 1 card ambiguity (5/4 vs 4/5 typically) so responder may guess wrong and reach the wrong strain when holding equal length and a weak hand. Also, hands with only 5/4 minors like 22(45) or (31)(45) don't have a perfect bid, either NT if appropriate or maybe a delayed 2♦ or 3♣ with only 5.

Method 2 "show a 4♥ side suit early"
The idea here is to show a side 4 card heart suit since these hands may otherwise miss the right strain if they bid their primary suit first and partner is weak. Some 4 card side spade suits are shown as well for other awkward hands, but the emphasis is on hearts (since when these hands are held, it is more likely responder is weak).

1♣-1♦-?

1♥ relay (extras, min balanced, and most unbalanced hands without 4♥)
1♠ 4♠/5+♣ or 4♠/5♥, unbalanced min
1NT 19-21
2♣ 5+♣/4♥, unbalanced min
2♦ 5+♦/4♥, unbalanced min
2♥ 5♠/4♥, unbalanced min
2♠ 6♠+/4♥, unbalanced min

Again 4441 hands might be 1♠ or 2m here, or else treat as balanced.

After 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠ negative 0-7

1N 16-18 bal
2♣ extras, artificial 1-round force (~20+ unbalanced, 22+ balanced)
2♦ 5+ primary diamonds
2♥ 5+ primary hearts (won't have spades unless at least 6/4)
2♠ 5+ primary spades (won't have hearts unless at least 5/5)
2N 5/5 or longer in both minors
3♣ 6+ primary clubs (usually single suited)

The advantage of Method 2 comes in the initial relay breaks, where responder can judge more easily which of opener's suits to prefer since opener's bids are more precise. However, opener's rebids over the 1♠ negative are less well defined, but still natural and promising 5+ suits. Opener can have a wider range of shapes, including 5/4, 5/5 or 6+ being typical, making reaching the best strain sometimes more difficult if responder isn't strong enough to inquire about a possible side suit fit.

What do you think? I have been and will continue to bid a bunch of hands on BBO under these methods to see how they fare, what some issues are, etc. If you see me in the partnership bidding area, feel free to drop in and see how it's going. Luckily the vast majority of strong club hands are 16-21 balanced and these are handled just fine with strong NT methods. The unbalanced ones are sometimes problematic however.

[rbforster]

Just an update. After playing around with this, I think I like a sort of "reverse Kokish" over 1♣-1♦. By this I mean you bid 1♥ (relay) on most minimum hands, and break the relay on most stronger hands. When partner is weak (and will bid 1♠ negative over your 1♥ relay), you essentially get 2 ways to make each of the common bids of 1N-2♠.

Fast bids over 1♣-1♦ (relay break = generally stronger)
1N 18-19 bal
2♣ "strong 2♣"
2X 5+ suit extras but NF (~19-21)

Slow bids over 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠ (relay = generally weaker)
1N 16-17 bal
2♣♦ 5+ suit (usually 6+) NF
2♥♠ 6+ suit NF

The tricky part that makes this work well is the 1♠ relay break:

1♠ min 2 suiter 5/4+, M+m or M+M (1 card difference - 5/4, 5/5, 6/5; not 6/4)
   1N asks for which suits (2m = m+♥, 2♥=majors, 2♠ = ♠+m)
   2♣ pass/correct for the minor (or 2♥ with both majors)
   2♦ ?? maybe asks for a 5 card major?
   2♥ pass/correct for the (longer) major

This lets us get the 2 suited bids described early and responder can then scramble to a fit with a weak hand, invite if a fit is found, etc. I'm still debating the best signoff and asking methods over this bid. There are probably still some improvements to be made and things to be worked out, but it looks pretty good so far.

[rbforster]

Rob F, on Jan 18 2008, 11:32 AM, said:

1♣-1♦ shows one of 3 classes of hands:
   1. any double negative 0-4
   2. most negatives 5-7 (but excludes most single suiters)
   3. any GF with hearts or hearts and a minor.

Goals:
1. Avoid disrupting the GF relay when partner has a GF hearts hand too often
2. Help find the right strain when partner has a negative hand

We ran some statistics and it turns out that perhaps unsurprisingly in these methods the weak hands are much more common - about 85% of 1♦ bids are of the 0-7 variety rather than the GF hearts hands. Even if you condition on opener having some heart length, this doesn't change much. In light of this we are worrying less about the correlation with hearts and focusing more on being able to get to the right strain opposite weaker hands. This is the motivation for the 2-suited 1♠ bid described above.