[gwnn]

Scoring: IMP

---

1♥-1♠-(2♦<-passed hand)
3♣-3♦*
4♣-4♥
4NT-5♣
5♦-5♥

Pass. pheew, trumps were 3-3.

[FrancesHinden]

South was insane.
North might have passed 3C - would not be absurd, instead he obviuosly thought partner had a good hand. He then gave preference from clubs to hearts. I don't know whey South expected anything better in hearts from North, and indeed was lucky partner had the CJ.

[helene_t]

South obviously intended 3♣ as forcing. Since North apparently also interpretted it that way, that's fine. But with that agreement, S had shown his hand with 3♣ and should just pass 4♥.

[Codo]

I wonder about the comments that 3 Club is nonforcing.
This must be forcing for sure.

North did give a preference for heart with Jx. Even at imps this can be a good idea, even opposite a 5/5 hand.
If he had raised clubs, they may had a shoot at the slam or at least found the better game.

South maybe thought, taht pds 4 Heart bid showed real support, so he did one more move towards slam. This was no good idea, so he is to blame.
First he could not be sure about the "real" support and second his hand was too weak for this.

[FrancesHinden]

Codo, on Jan 18 2008, 12:14 PM, said:

I wonder about the comments that 3 Club is nonforcing.
This must be forcing for sure.

No it's not. Even playing good/bad (which we aren't told) it's not forcing. You hold

Jx
KQxxx
x
AK109x

and the auction starts 1H P 1S (2D)

what are you going to do, pass?

[paulg]

I see that everyone has rightly voted for South, except perhaps South voted for North?

[Codo]

FrancesHinden, on Jan 18 2008, 08:27 PM, said:

Codo, on Jan 18 2008, 12:14 PM, said:

I wonder about the comments that 3 Club is nonforcing.
This must be forcing for sure.

No it's not. Even playing good/bad (which we aren't told) it's not forcing. You hold

Jx
KQxxx
x
AK109x

and the auction starts 1H P 1S (2D)

what are you going to do, pass?

No, unluckily we don´t play good/bad, else we had no problem, hadn´t we?

But how do you want to show your forcing two suiters then?

With 3 Diamond intending to forget about the club suit after pd bid 3 NT?
Or with 3 Diamond followed by 4 Club?
With X, and forget about support doubles and don´t care whether your second suit is 4 or 5 cards long?
With pass and pull forcing at the 2. level?
With a jump to 4 Club?

[FrancesHinden]

Codo, on Jan 18 2008, 01:15 PM, said:

But how do you want to show your forcing two suiters then?

With 3 Diamond intending to forget about the club suit after pd bid 3 NT?
Or with 3 Diamond followed by 4 Club?
With a jump to 4 Club?

With one of those three options, yes (depends on the hand).

I'm sorry, it's basically unplayable to play 3C as game forcing. You could probably play it as a 1 round force by agreement, but that's not at all standard.

[ArtK78]

This is a fascinating discussion.

The consensus here is that South underbid his/her cards, since 3♣ was not forcing. Playing GB 2NT, the 3♣ bid shows a very good hand. Maybe not this good, but very good. Given the alternatives, I would make the same bid and hope that partner would bid again except with a terrible hand.

Having said that, South bid hearts and clubs and clubs. North took a false preference to hearts. This false preference, which appears to be reasonable at the 4 level, proved to be a problem for slam purposes.

South, rightly or wrongly, bid Blackwood. North showed one key card (presumably). South should bid a slam, given North's 3♦ call. North must have some values. But South should bid 6♣ to offer a choice to North.

6♣ is a pretty good contract on a dummy reversal. Unless I am missing something, it is cold on 3-2 clubs and 4-2 spades (barring some disaster in the heart suit).

So, the verdict is South is to blame, but not so much for the 3♣ bid; rather, it is the final pass that is the problem.

[pclayton]

South seemed to bid his values about three times.

[pclayton]

ArtK78, on Jan 18 2008, 07:42 AM, said:

So, the verdict is South is to blame, but not so much for the 3♣ bid; rather, it is the final pass that is the problem.

It's the ♣JT9 that makes 6♣ appealing. How can South possibly know North has these cards?

[ArtK78]

North's 3♦ bid had to be based on something. When South bids 6♣, North can make the final decision as to strain. With a lesser club holding, the slam would not be as good, but would still have reasonable play.

[han]

I don't like 4C (prefer 3S) and I think 4NT is far too much. North's 3D doesn't show a very good hand, it is just looking for the right strain.

[beatrix45]

North is an idiot. From her perspective, the hand almost plays itself. Once she knows South has ten+ round suit cards, the J109 of ♣ becomes golden on a dummy reversal. SO, she should bid either ten or eleven tricks in clubs (usually 11) depending on the state of the match.

All others are cordially invited to play in my regular Wednesday afternoon 10 cent (Canadian) a point rubber bridge game in Kalamute, B.C. - unless, of course, you learn how to bid in the meanwhile. The only outside money welcomed in Kalamute is dead money, and there certainly looks to be some of that on this thread.

[matmat]

i fail to see the point of 3D. seems a natural 3S call would show a fifth spade, p would still likely rebid 3N with a diamond stop. and we wouldn't mind playing 4S opposite ♠Xx. then over the 4♣ call we have a 4♦ bid available to show good club support, or we can make a guess between 4♥ or 5♣ if so inclined.


edited to take into account my lack of reading comprehension.

[cherdano]

My guess is South didn't misevaluate, he misunderstood the auction. He thought partner was bidding 3♦ planning to bid 4♥ later in order to invite for slam. If that were true South has an obvious slam force, since he is supermax for 3♣.
If he didn't misunderstand the auction, and bid on just because he was supermax, then he just violated a very basic bidding principle. You can't bid on to slam just because you have a supermax for your previous bid when partner bid game; this is like bidding on after 1H 2H 4H when your hand is close to a limit raise.

For matmat: There was a 2♦ overcall after 1♠, 3♣ is not a jumpshift.

[jdonn]

No blame for north? 3♦ is a clear overbid, whatever it means.