[X-Punkyfish]

I still don't understand why Gerber is used when there is an opening 1NT or 2NT opening bid. Surely Blackwood is a much more reliable system why should the the NT opening bid make a difference?

[inquiry]

X-Punkyfish, on Feb 21 2004, 06:50 AM, said:

I still don't understand why Gerber is used when there is an opening 1NT or 2NT opening bid. Surely Blackwood is a much more reliable system why should the the NT opening bid make a difference?

The logic is to save 1NT-4NT as a "quantatative power raise". It tells partner to pass with a minimum and bid slam with a maximum. And a jump to 4♣, bypassing 3NT as a natural invite to 5♣ is not useful, and 3♣ over 1NT is already forcing. The same "uselessness" of 4♦ gave rise to the transfer at the four level (as opposed to the 2 level), to allow jacoby followed by jump to 4 to suggest some mild slam interest.

Ben

[WGF_Flame]

X-Punkyfish, on Feb 21 2004, 06:50 AM, said:

Surely Blackwood is a much more reliable

what do u mean by that ?
what dont u like about Gerber ?

[mr1303]

The biggest criticism of Gerber is the frequency that the correct hands for it actually come up. When your partner opens in NT, then there is far more scope for there to be delayed losers, rather than quick losers (i.e. cashing aces) which is what the Blackwood/Gerber system is designed to avoid.

More often than not, if your partner is balanced, then you are likely to be too. Blackwood crops up more often, due to distribution in suit contracts, and hence cashing aces is more relevant.

I use 4C as a South-African Texas transfer to 4H personally

[Free]

First of all, welcome to the forum X-Punkyfish Never thought I'd be the first one to tell someone that

Now about the topic:
I really dont see why blackwood would be a better tool than Gerber: ace asking is the same principle, BUT:
1) Gerber starts lower
2) Gerber ALWAYS stays lower and can even ask for Jacks in certain cases. All you have to do is bidding the next suit after an answer to ask for the next honour cards.
3) You can place your answers as you wish (40/1/2/3 or 30/41/2 or 41/30/2 or something else)

Example:

2NT- 4C [space] 20-22 [space] [space][space] [space]Gerber (Ace asking)
 4S - 5C [space][space]2 aces [space] [space][space] Gerber (King asking)
 5D - 5H [space] 0/4 kings [space] Gerber (Queen asking)
 5S - 6C [space] 0/4 queens [space]Gerber (Jack asking)
 6S - 7NT [space]2 jacks [space] [space] Yeehaa!

By looking at your own hand, opener shows 2 aces, 4 kings, 0 queens and 2 jacks, 22 HCP Please tell me how you'll find this out when using regular blackwood!

Ok, so the J asking thing isn't really necessary, but it's possible! You can even change your answering scheme of ace asking to 30/41/2 if you really want.
Whenever responder bids NT or bids something else than the next suit bid, it's to play. So after 4♠ answer, 5♣ is the only new relay to ask furter info, 4NT and 5♦+ are to play.
This really makes a lot more use of the bidding space than regular Gerber ofcourse, but the regular gerber can as well ask for Queens to find out about grand slam (4♣ Aces, 5♣ Kings, 6♣ Queens), and you won't get into troubles if you want to stop at 5NT (or even 4NT if partner hasn't got enough Aces).

How can you still bid 6NT if you have 3 Aces together, and you don't want to go down in 6NT because you miss a King to much as well? With Gerber you can still bid 5NT after a King ask, while with Blackwood you can't. Also, if the bidding goes
1NT - 4NT
5♠ - 5NT
?
Is 5NT King ask or to play? You only get into troubles there...

I personnally use 4♣ Gerber only after 1NT, after a 2NT opening I moved it to 4♠, because the 4♣ bid has better uses over there and we lose only 2 bids of bidding space, which is acceptable. And actually, after a 1NT/2NT opening, I have never used Gerber, but maybe some day I will... So the times you should use it are really rare, as mr1303 mentioned!

[Trpltrbl]

I am not a big fan of Gerber but very seldom it does have it use. I like to play also something called RKC Gerber, which is after you transfered and then bid Gerber, which is RKC for the suit you transfered too. And as for using Gerber to find about Jacks to bid Grandslam , you need to possibly know about specific Jacks but not the amount. I haven't laughed that hard in about a week....

Mike

[WGF_Flame]

Trpltrbl, on Feb 26 2004, 08:57 PM, said:

I am not a big fan of Gerber but very seldom it does have it use. I like to play also something called RKC Gerber, which is after you transfered and then bid Gerber, which is RKC for the suit you transfered too. And as for using Gerber to find about Jacks to bid Grandslam  , you need to possibly know about specific Jacks but not the amount. I haven't laughed that hard in about a week....

Mike 

In my gerber u can find out about specific 8s

[Robertn]

The thread title mentions Acol - are there special considerations in slam bidding over a weak NT (12-14 say) because opener is less likely to have all suits stopped?

[WGF_Flame]

Robertn, on Feb 29 2004, 10:00 AM, said:

The thread title mentions Acol - are there special considerations in slam bidding over a weak NT (12-14 say) because opener is less likely to have all suits stopped?

nothing speciall, except ovioslly responder is a bit stronger.

[the saint]

An Acol player here. Gerber has sort of fallen out of favour in Acol-land (UK) mainly because of disdain as much as anything. It is commonly used by (very) weak players with any game raise opposite an opening bid, as a slam try on the way to game. They get their response and stop in game, frequently going off!! Seeing this abuse, 'expert players', tend to look down on this and decide not to play Gerber!

Frequently though it is a question of response structure. Clearly over a suit, 4C is to the majority, more effectively used as a splinter, or in more old-fashioned cases, some kind of Swiss-style response. Leaving us with in response to NT bids. Over 2NT, there is a strong case for playing 4C as a natural slam try, but over 1NT this 'structure' issue is less clear cut.

Thee are options, but it does depend heavily on how many transfers you play over 1NT. If you only play 2 transfers then you might wish to use a 3C response as some kind of 8-11ish type hand with a good suit e.g. Qxx xx xx AQJxxx, strictly promising 2 of top 3 honours and inviting partner to trytheir luck in if they can fit you. Then 4C may be played as a natural slam try. Of course some people will just bid 3NT on those hand-types anyway! As was also suggested, 4C can have some kind of Texas-style meaning, just don't do what Boris Schapiro once famously did and forget the system!

I suppose the reality is that the experts have decided that they can find out about Aces through other more-convoluted means. If you feel most comfortable with Gerber, then you play it.