[finally17]

Hannie, on Dec 16 2007, 11:10 AM, said:

Agree with Richard's comment (though it wouldn't have been my choice of words).

If you already know that Polish club is less natural than precision (it isn't), a poor system (it isn't) and played by people who don't follow the rules (meaning your rules) then why ask all these questions?

If you want to understand the system, I suggest asking the same question again without implying that all Polish experts are inconsiderate.

As has been said at least twice, the real problem is that people don't [adequately] alert their bids, or adequately explain them, in general. The difference is likely that the poster is at least familiar with the basics of 2/1 or SAYC.

You're absolutely right that Momo wasn't as polite, or as aware of his bridge world, as he should have been, in asking the question. But:

The fact that he asked his questions first and then gave his understanding at least implies that he's willing to have his understandings corrected. Graciousness would accept that this is the more important step.

[P_Marlowe]

helene_t, on Dec 16 2007, 04:29 PM, said:

I found English more difficult to learn than any other foreign language because the pronunciation is so irregular, but it is really comparing apples with oranges. English has the advantage of not having genders, and the word order is simple compared to German and Dutch.

.-), but if you know latin, the word order in german may
not be so complicate at all.
And if you know latin, you will be able to learn several
european languages fairly easilyas well.

But I do not claim, that latin is an easy language to learn.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[finally17]

helene_t, on Dec 16 2007, 04:29 PM, said:

I found English more difficult to learn than any other foreign language because the pronunciation is so irregular, but it is really comparing apples with oranges. English has the advantage of not having genders, and the word order is simple compared to German and Dutch.

There are lots of factors that make different languages harder for different people, and you've basically hit a big one...Shared features between first language and new language help tremendously, phonology and word order being two very good examples.

But second language learning is insanely complicated and statements like "English is harder to learn than French or Spanish" are only true in specific cases, while the converse will also be true in other situations.

[han]

finally17, on Dec 16 2007, 05:22 PM, said:

Hannie, on Dec 16 2007, 11:10 AM, said:

Agree with Richard's comment (though it wouldn't have been my choice of words).

If you already know that Polish club is less natural than precision (it isn't), a poor system (it isn't) and played by people who don't follow the rules (meaning your rules) then why ask all these questions?

If you want to understand the system, I suggest asking the same question again without implying that all Polish experts are inconsiderate.

As has been said at least twice, the real problem is that people don't [adequately] alert their bids, or adequately explain them, in general. The difference is likely that the poster is at least familiar with the basics of 2/1 or SAYC.

You're absolutely right that Momo wasn't as polite, or as aware of his bridge world, as he should have been, in asking the question. But:

The fact that he asked his questions first and then gave his understanding at least implies that he's willing to have his understandings corrected. Graciousness would accept that this is the more important step.

If I ask: Could anybody explain to me why finally17 seems so dumb then that would be a very rude thing for me to say. Just by asking the question I would have insulted you. I think the initial poster asks similar questions.

[finally17]

Fair enough.

[MickyB]

The main advantage of Polish Club is that when you open 1♣, partner can assume you have a weak no-trump and bid accordingly, with little regard for the other possible hand-types in the 1♣ opening. Playing SAYC (or any "natural" system) you will face uncomfortable decisions where you want to make one bid if partner has a balanced minimum and a different bid if partner is known to be unbalanced/have a five-card suit. Opposite a hand that is known to be balanced, negative freebids work very well (similar to 1NT-(2♥)-2♠ being "to play"); opposite a hand that is likely to be unbalanced, partner could have a void opposite your suit, so negative freebids don't work nearly so well.

[jdonn]

finally17, on Dec 16 2007, 05:16 PM, said:

I'm not looking to flash credentials, bachelor's don't count for much, but it's rather likely that I'm more informed on the subject than you.

Would you like me or someone else to use this same logic to start an argument about every post you make about bridge? Didn't think so.

Quote

And while I might not be on topic, I am responding to things that are off-topic as well.  You chose to be needlessly insulting while at the same time you were wrong.  I take exception to people being needlessly insulting, in case you haven't noticed.

What are you, everyone's mommy? If you take exception to something then ignore it next time, you'll feel better. Here are 3 links that might help you out.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1233...ge-to-read.html

http://www.edu-cyber...acy/reading.asp

http://www.urbandict....php?term=troll

[the hog]

Josh is correct. Romance languages are easier to teach and to learn than English. Due to its non phonetic spelling and convoluted grammar rules, English is a far more difficult language to learn than, say Spanish. If you want to throw qualifications or experience around, then teaching ESL as a minor is not something I would crow about on this forum.

[finally17]

jdonn, on Dec 16 2007, 07:52 PM, said:

finally17, on Dec 16 2007, 05:16 PM, said:

I'm not looking to flash credentials, bachelor's don't count for much, but it's rather likely that I'm more informed on the subject than you.

Would you like me or someone else to use this same logic to start an argument about every post you make about bridge? Didn't think so.

You just don't get it. You make arrogant, rude, condescending posts, and when you get called on it you say I'm trolling.

The guy asks some questions, which apparently you dispute, either the questions themselves or their form I don't really know. But you take off on this ridiculous and rude tangent about language learning and your perception of ignorant Americans, and I'm the one trolling?

That makes no sense at all.

I have no problem saying you're a much better bridge player than me. But that fact and the fact that this is the BBO forum doesn't give you license to act the arrogant jerk on every subject. The fact that people just let you do it, well, that's a problem unto itself. But I see no need to.

As for your "helpful" links, the first is about reading, not about second language learning, which was what your claim was about; the two are different things. Unless you meant the speaking of first languages, in which case it wasn't just a myth, it was ridiculous in the extreme. The second doesn't even attempt to make an argument that English is harder than other languages...just that it's hard...a point that is applicable to virtually any second language from any first.

The third, well...I'll say it again in a different way...maybe one that makes you think English is hard: "pot, kettle, black".

[MomoTheDog]

Some very informative responses here. Thanks guys and girls.

[brianshark]

English can be a very difficult language to speak than romance languages because of the idiosyncracies in pronouncing things, dropping various words, slang, etc when you go to places like America and even here in Ireland. Some of the polish lads here in Ireland who I play wj05 with (to keep this on-topic ) tell me about it. I can even hear myself using the most abysmal spoken grammar when speaking to them but it's just a slang thing and I find it no wonder they struggle to understand us sometimes.

After a basic high-school education in French, I find it relatively easy for compose basic sentences on the fly. I doube I'd have the same ease with English. Irish, on the other hand, is far harder than either of them. I pity the fool that tries to learn Irish as a 2nd or 3rd language. Granted, Polish is no walk in the park either.

Wj05 has a tricky 1♣ opening and 1♦ response mostly for people unfamiliar with such methods but the auctions become fairly natural fairly quickly. I find it a neat little system to play and it being so much more defined than sayc, 2.1 or acol *shudders* makes it much more suitable for a pick-up partner.

In general, polish people on BBO are pretty bad at alerting their wj05 system. So are most people of most nationalities, true. But most people just play a plain and easy to understand sayc-ish system or have no greements anyway. More damage is done by the lack of alerting when playing polish.

[matmat]

brianshark, on Dec 17 2007, 04:54 AM, said:

I pity the fool that tries to learn Irish as a 2nd or 3rd language. Granted, Polish is no walk in the park either.

a team reference?
*snort*

polish is easy

[Rossoneri]

Uh, isn't jdown american himself?

Back to topic, a good place to look at polish club would probably be DavidC's Polish Club notes.

I would think that WJ2005 has many useful conventions packed inside, but after reading through Dan Neill's notes, I would say it is not for those with a weak stomach (or mind). Especially those brought up on playing SAYC-ish systems.

[gwnn]

English is very easy. The pronunciation is quite tricky, but there is just so amazingly much exposure in 90+% of the world that it's not hard to get used to.

However, the grammar is remarkably clear and straightforward, with virtually no exceptions. Irregular verbs exist, but they exist in every language.

[helene_t]

P_Marlowe, on Dec 17 2007, 12:27 AM, said:

but if you know latin, the word order in german may
not be so complicate at all.

Right, and if you know Danish, the Norwegian word order is not that complicated. And if you know SEF, the SAYC rules for which of two suits to bid (first) are not that complicated. I suppose I chose a bad example.

[jtfanclub]

brianshark, on Dec 17 2007, 04:54 AM, said:

In general, polish people on BBO are pretty bad at alerting their wj05 system. So are most people of most nationalities, true. But most people just play a plain and easy to understand sayc-ish system or have no greements anyway. More damage is done by the lack of alerting when playing polish.

Really? I think that's just because you're more familiar with SAYC.

For example, I'd guess that more damage is caused by unalerted New Minor Forcing in SAYC than anything in Polish Club. All sorts of play issues are caused by "showing" a suit that you're (more often than not) actually denying. Since 95%+ of 1 club openings in Polish are either 12-14 balanced or 15+ and a club suit, not knowing that it's occassionally 2 clubs doesn't really hurt anything.

As for not alerting, well, lots of Poles in BBO aren't fluent in English. The truth is, the 1♦ response is difficult to describe, about as difficult as the "Forcing 1NT" is to accurately describe. Best to describe both of them as 'waiting', rather than describe every possible bid that could fit.

Probably the most shocking auction in Polish Club is 1♣-1♦-1NT, which shows...a balanced 18-20 hcp! While it would be a good thing to alert that, especially online, it doesn't shock me that most poles don't alert it. After all, it's natural, and it's common where they play, so why should they alert it?

[mycroft]

Well, the most trouble I had recently was 1C(Precision)-2C(unalerted, when asked, explained as natural). Turned out to be Michaels - which I guess is the "natural" meaning for the cuebid...

The Poles have a partially deserved reputation for underexplaining, and have had for 30 years. Part of that, I have found, is that they *almost* use WBF system coding, with the colours and the CC and so on. The only difference is that instead of the Red (1C forcing, not necessarily strong) system that Polish Club is, in Poland it's Green (Natural). So they call it Green in WBF events, and annoy everybody who have read the WBF rules. They also tend to provide a minimal card - probably their club card, frankly; suitable for 1st division in Poland, but nothing like enough when their opponents aren't Polish Club players. OTOH, there are a large number of "natural" players who have (sub-)minimal cards as well (and try looking at an "average" ACBL CC. I would say it's *massively* undercovered).

However, it isn't totally deserved, and after a couple of supplementary questions (which serve to underline that I am unfamiliar with Polish Club), the Poles I have played against start giving full, useful explanations (if for no other reason than to shut me up :-).

Michael.

[blackshoe]

The ACBL CC is, imo, poorly designed for any situation other than one where most, if not all, of the partnership's agreeements fit the assumptions made by the idiots people who designed it.

[RogerGe]

i do not find the polish club a very good variation of the Blue Team Club system and by the wat, SAYC is in fact 99% the standard ITALIAN system !
my friend, Flaviu DR re-developed the Blue Team Club system adding some very sound variations and modern day conventions. I did work on a presentation in Power Point Viewer 2007 (i dont have enough knowledge in programing to do it in another program) which i am sure can help anybody trough its interactive facilities to understand the system and to memorize its mechanism. i can e-mail it free to anybody intrested: its not 100% completed and i would like some feed back.
e-mail a request at:
gdumites@bigpond.net.au

[awm]

Polish club versus 2/1: You gain when you open 1♦, 1♥, and 1♠ because all of these are more tightly limited than in 2/1. In addition, the 1♦ bid promises a real suit (usually five cards, occasionally four) instead potentially being a balanced hand (usually four cards, occasionally three). On strong hands, you sometimes gain by keeping the auction low (opening 1♣) which can allow to set up an early game force when partner replies with something other than 1♦, and guarantees that opener can show his strength (i.e. partner won't pass the opening with a hand that makes game, which can easily happen in 2/1). On hands with clubs, you occasionally lose by missing a major suit fit when you open 2♣, but you also occasionally win by preempting the auction and showing serious club length (allowing partner to raise). The main losses come when you open 1♣ with a good hand and the opponents intervene. This is only a big problem when you have a complex hand (i.e. two or three suiter) and are behind in describing whereas you would have been better off to start by naming a suit and complete your pattern (and show your extras) by rebidding over interference.

Polish club versus strong club: The openings other than 1♣ and 1♦ are quite similar in spirit, especially if you play a strongish notrump range in your big club system (playing weak notrump carries its own advantages and disadvantages which we have already discussed ad nauseum). Polish club wins when you open 1♦, since this shows a real suit making it much easier for partner to raise and easier to cope with in competition. When Polish club opens 1♣, it is harder for the opponents to bid on garbage than it is over a strong 1♣, because they could easily have the majority of the points and game on values. So sometimes you reduce the craziness, you are less likely to have to deal with weird methods like psycho-suction or crash (even though these are legal over the polish club, they tend to be quite destructive and make it hard for the overcalling side to bid game on values when opener has a weak notrump). On the other hand, when opponents do intervene the strong clubbers are usually better placed, since partner knows that opener has the good hand and can act accordingly (this also allows opener to pass with the "big notrump" in competition because the "small notrump" is not a possibility, something that doesn't work as well in Polish club).