[CSGibson]

Quote

You hold AQJ10xx xx xx Qxx: your call over 3♥?

Then partner bids 4♦... are you really done here? Are you now barred from bidding 4♠?

Or do you jump to 4♠ over 3♥?

Or do you pass and pray partner (who is short(ish) in spades) reopens?

I don't know what's standard here, but here's what makes sense to me. If 3 spades is game forcing, than 4 spades should be this weaker hand that doesn't have defense for 3 hearts doubled. After all, the double-then-bid spades with a weak hand argument is basically forcing to 4 spades anyway, with the off chance that you get to defend 3 hearts doubled when you have an 8 or nine card spade fit. Unless, of course, you are planning to pass if partner actually removes to 3 spades.

Double should show 4 spades or the bad-spade-suit game force, in my opinion. Either way, you'll be happier to defend than when you hold the shapely hand given above. Again, that may not be standard and I may not be thinking of all the cool things that you'd prefer 4 spades to be. Oh well.

[P_Marlowe]

brianshark, on Nov 26 2007, 07:04 PM, said:

What's wrong with the immediate jump to 4♠ after 3♥? Is there any response to the negative dbl that partner can make that won't lead to us bidding 4♠ on the above hand? It seems we want to play in 4♠ no matter what partner has, whether he has support or not, whether he's min or not. Aren't these hands generally shown by jumping un-economically and unilaterally to game?

Having said that, I'm still not sure what 4♠ followed by a double would mean. Perhaps some slam try with long spades?

I guess it depends on methods, but at least for some partnerships,
a jump to 4S after 3H is a fit jump, showing diamonds and spades.

If you play this, you have to go via double to show a power house
with spades.

The difference between bidding 3S (GF) followed by 4S, and bidding
4S after a double is, that there are hands in the inv. range, which
you need to treat as GF, but you need to ensure, that partner wont
get exited.
You need to have a way to tell partner, that you made the without
being presssurred to find a bid.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[benlessard]

Most type of hands that you want to handle are

1-♠ & Nt = spades but Nt could easily be best spot both in slammish and in non-slammish form.

2-♠ & good fit with partner = spades are possible but you also want to raise partner both in slammish and in non-slammish form.

3-Nt & /good fit with partner = where 3Nt or raising partner might be correct. both in slammish and in non-slammish form.

4-Spades & slammish = your going to endup in S but how high ?

5-Spades not slammish = you want to play 4S


with 1 & 3 starting by a neg X is best. Partner with a stopper will bid Nt with some length will pass and otherwise you will play in suit.



for 2,4,5

If you X and pard respond 4m its not-forcing therefore if partner got a max hand with both m or with super D he will need to jump to game. So gambling hands (5)with good & longs spades shouldnt make a neg X, NEVER (+ the fact that partner can pass your double). With these hands you need to either bid 3S followed by 4S or a direct 4S.

So whats the possible use of a direct 4S.

1----S+D fit
2----long spades slammish
3----long spades to play (gambling to 4s)

If you decide that a jump to 4S show a slammish hands then with AJTxxxxx and nothing else you need to bid 3S followed by 4S. Partner need to understand that its to play. You also need to turn off forcing passes. Also with super slammish you cant bid 4S. This is annoying.

If you decide to play that 4S is S + fit. Then with slammish hands with S you need to bid 3S followed by a cuebid (otherwise 3S followed by 4S is gambling) this is akward. You might have to make a false H cuebid wich is just as bad.

So the only thing remaining for a direct 4S is that the gambling type of 4S.

So 3S followed by 4S become a bit slammsih. 3S followed by a a new suit is slammish or show fit.

So all S+Fit or S & Nt, or long non solid need to start by a X.




--------------------------------------------------------
For me a direct 4S is tactical. Meaning im gambling into 4S partner should not try for slam without magic.

3S followed by 4S is showing self sufficient spades with a goodish hand and slam possibility.

X followed by 4S is doubt about strain.
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Some problems if you dont followed this method.

You X with a slammish hand with very long S and partner pass.

You have a gambling 4S. You bid 3S followed by 4H pass all the way to you you bid
4S opp bid back at 5H. Forcing pass or not ?

You bid have a powerhouse with long S. you bid 3S opps bid 4H back to you ?

would X show a powerhouse with no H control or shitty S and wanting to collect a +.

etc

[helene_t]

I voted 3♠ but Han's argument convinced me. Dbl is better. I agree that dbl followed by 4♠ shows this hand.

[jdonn]

I agree with Hannie too. I think the hands Mike shows just overbid 3♠ until they are just too weak and have to pass instead.

[han]

Josh, how do you play the jump to 4S?

[jdonn]

Hannie, on Nov 29 2007, 12:58 PM, said:

Josh, how do you play the jump to 4S?

Does it matter? Not every six card suit would qualify for that.

[beatrix45]

3NT. Hamman's law: "if 3NT is a possible bid, bid it".

This is a good example hand. What is partner to do over 3♠ if he can't raise spades and has no heart stopper? Similarly, even worse, after a (ugh) negative double. 3♠ and dbl are perfect "Futile Willie" bids.

Accept that the 3♥ preempt has done its damage, and make the best of it. Pass is a halfway reasonable second choice, but way against percentages opposite a sound opening bid.

[keylime]

I originally voted for 3♠, but I'm changing my mind and going for double - it caters to more situations alluded to, and additionally, if pard's on some hearts they may convert it because they may have no other rebid available. My double is somewhat cooperative because it's at the 3 level at equal colors. Additionally, you may not have game if pard's on a weak NT hand of 12-14 points lacking some fillers (you're staring at AS, KH, KD - what DID pard open on over there?). Lastly, I'm at IMPs - and I think my best outcomes are going for the sure plus of +300 likely versus an unknown +420 or worse off -100/-150 (and higher).

So, change me to the double camp.