[skjaeran]

kenrexford, on Nov 22 2007, 05:17 AM, said:

skaeran, on Nov 21 2007, 04:29 PM, said:

I never considered 3NT with my minor 2-suiter.

Did you never consider 3NT because:

(a.) it would mean something other than what you held, as far as pattern, or
(b.) it never occurred to you, but maybe should have, or
(c.) it occurred you you, and would have shown your actual pattern, but your strength was wrong (i.e., actually did consider, in a sense, but rejected), or
(d.) other?

Related, what would 3♦...3NT mean for you, as opposed to the actual auction?

I didn't play with a regular partner, so 3NT here would be undiscussed. I'd expect it to show 6-4, but I'd not be absolutely confident partner was on the same page. I held another hand, thus bidding 3NT didn't occur to me. So your point c is correct. What might have been an alternative was overcalling 2NT instead of 3♦. It might probably have worked out better, but I think 3♦ was the correct call on my hand.

[brianshark]

Raise for me too.

[skjaeran]

My hand: ♠AT ♥v ♦KJT962 ♣AQ743

Making 6 on a heart lead - only a spade lead sets 6♣. Maybe I should have bid differently over 2♥, noone can fault partners pass, only RHO's balancing bid gave us anohter chance.

When that is said, I'd have raised to game with partner's hans. Surely I'd have bid the same with ♠QT, but going for exactly +130 is too small a target IMO.

[whereagles]

skaeran, on Nov 22 2007, 11:49 AM, said:

My hand: ♠AT ♥v ♦KJT962 ♣AQ743
(...) Surely I'd have bid the same with ♠QT, but going for exactly +130 is too small a target IMO.

Or ♠AT ♥2 ♦KJT96 ♣AQ743, for that matter

[benlessard]

I would pass 4 C. I play that a 2Nt by him would show S&C (not both m) so hes surely 65+/74/3055 in my book. But with a very good hand i expect partner to bid 2C with a 5C suit and not passing. So that why ill aim for + 130. I know my hand is great but at the same time i like to give leeway to my partners for competing in partscores.


I remember a similar hand where the bidding did go. (im not sure if opps had H or S)


1D ----2C----X--------pass
2S----3D----pass-----???


We were playing that 4C over 1D would show C + S GF.

And obviously both 2C & 3D were slow bids wich add some ethics annoyement.


It really doesnt make sense to play 3D as natural but at the same time i couldnt see any other meaning to the 3D bid other then a strong 65 in the minors.

The alternative were that partner was sandbagging with a vstrong clubs suit so distributionnal that he knew the bidding wouldnt go pass,pass,pass and decided to bid 2C instead of X or a 3D cue.

3D as natural is a bid im sure i would not have the balls to do. But what else could it be ?

[mcphee]

passing is losing bridge, if my partner has only 4 card C suit he is not going to be my partner for long. This is an easy raise to game. I go down that is too bad, but I expect to make it.

[whereagles]

Jlall, on Nov 22 2007, 12:36 PM, said:

whereagles, on Nov 22 2007, 07:22 AM, said:

skaeran, on Nov 22 2007, 11:49 AM, said:

My hand: ♠AT ♥v ♦KJT962 ♣AQ743
(...) Surely I'd have bid the same with ♠QT, but going for exactly +130 is too small a target IMO.

Or ♠AT ♥2 ♦KJT96 ♣AQ743, for that matter

except that he would never ever bid this way with this hand, and his auction must be 6-5.

that's ridiculous.

[Codo]

skaeran, on Nov 22 2007, 08:49 PM, said:

My hand: ♠AT ♥v ♦KJT962 ♣AQ743

And why didn´t you follow Sabines advice and bid 2 Club with this nice hand?

Bad guy

But serious, why do you prefer to pass first? I cann see some upsides for passing, but to rob the opps the whole 1. level + showing a nice suit and hand is nice too. The price is that you never get Diamonds in the picture later, but aren´t the upsides higher then the downsides?

[brianshark]

You're robbing your partner of the whole 1-level too and badly misdescribing your hand if you bid right away.

You're surely going to get a second crack at the whip. Maybe partner will find a balancing double. Maybe opps have all the strength but can't find a fit and the deal is a complete misfit.

It seems that passing first and bidding later is much more intelligent. You don't NEED to say anything right away with this hand. I can see much more good things happening by passing and waiting.

[whereagles]

agree. I bid a lot, but this is a textbook hand for a pass over 1♦

[Edmunte1]

Another probable scenario:

skaeran, on Nov 21 2007, 01:10 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

1♦  P  1♥ P
2♥ 3♦? P  P
P 

---

My hand: ♠AT ♥v ♦KJT962 ♣AQ743. Of course i missed the 2NT bid and missed a cold game.
But.... We were extremely lucky and the opponent with 4 trumps, not that with 5 reopened
But.... Again i missed the 3nt bid to show a strong 6-4
But... Partner found a raise!

[kenrexford]

I think I would have bid 2NT over 2♥. That gives me a chance that partner bids 4♣ after an immediate 3♥, and I can raise that.

Having started 3NT, if partner elects clubs, 3♥ from Opener, I think 3NT shows the 6-5 and is a very strong bid.

If 3♣ is passed back to me, 3♦ may be the winning push.

[whereagles]

that would be, in my opinion, better bidding (albeit muddier... lol)

[mike777]

1) As I earlier said easy 5club bid easy
2) Agree with Sabine comment...bid 2clubs over 1D anytime, anywhere.

[Codo]

brianshark, on Nov 22 2007, 11:08 PM, said:

You're robbing your partner of the whole 1-level too and badly misdescribing your hand if you bid right away.

You're surely going to get a second crack at the whip. Maybe partner will find a balancing double. Maybe opps have all the strength but can't find a fit and the deal is a complete misfit.

It seems that passing first and bidding later is much more intelligent. You don't NEED to say anything right away with this hand. I can see much more good things happening by passing and waiting.

1. What is more probably: That pd or the pd of the declarer will bid?

2. I badly misdescribe my hand with 2 Club, I agree, but how eactly do you show this hand without the help of your opponents?
Haralds choice was 3 Diamond with did not show this hand exactly either. This is tricky. 2 NT over 2 ♥ had been an idea however.

3. Yes you always get a second chance, I agree. But maybe this second chance is a little late because they found their fit already and exchanged many valuable informations.

3. If pd is strong enough for a balancing double, (of which suit?) What will be missed if you bid clubs now? Nothing.

4. It may be "more intelligent" to pass first. However in this hand the approach had not worked. They had just been lucky not to play 3 Diamond in their 6-1 fit.

[whereagles]

Codo, on Nov 22 2007, 03:47 PM, said:

2. I badly misdescribe my hand with 2 Club, I agree, but how eactly do you show this hand without the help of your opponents? Haralds choice was 3 Diamond with did not show this hand exactly either. This is tricky. 2 NT over 2 ♥ had been an idea however.

3. Yes  you always get a second chance, I agree. But maybe this second chance is a little late because they found their fit already and exchanged many valuable informations.

4. It may be "more intelligent" to pass first. However in this hand the approach had not worked. They had just been lucky not to play 3 Diamond in their 6-1 fit.

2. You show hands of this sort (55 minors and some hcps) by passing 1♦ and bidding 2NT later. It is not tricky that 2NT shows the minors. What else could it show? Certainly not spades and clubs... (that hand bids 2♠ or dbls).

3. On the other hand, if opps have a fit and you have a 55, the odds of your side having a fit are huge. It's hardly risky to bid later.

4. It didn't work because 3♦ put all the eggs in one basket. Opps balanced and you got the chance to open another basket, but that's luck.

[benlessard]

It would never cross my mind to pass 1D. If partner doesnt have C support this hand is probably going nowhere, a Club contract is by far the most probable denomination that we are going to play. Wanting to play in D is a honorable goal but coming back at the 3,4,5 level with a 65 is going to be annoying. Parter could have 5H and youre going to take a phantom save quite often if you pass and reopen later. Even 4C could be X -2 for 300 with them going down in 3H. Partner distribution could easily be 5-5-1-2, 5-4-2-2. Also by passing you lose some opportunity where the opps will reach 4H and your partner will gladly X with his 5 trumps. Also if the opp reach a game in a good M fit partner will never find the cheap save.

Quote

But serious, why do you prefer to pass first? I cann see some upsides for passing, but to rob the opps the whole 1. level + showing a nice suit and hand is nice too. The price is that you never get Diamonds in the picture later, but aren´t the upsides higher then the downsides?

I agree. But like i said in my earlier post. Bidding 2C might not automatically stop you from playing in D.

Quote

You're robbing your partner of the whole 1-level too and badly misdescribing your hand if you bid right away.

And coming back at 3D and concealing a 5 clubs suit (which is by far the suit where you are likely to have more trumps) isnt misdescribing ?

Quote

You're surely going to get a second crack at the whip. Maybe partner will find a balancing double. Maybe opps have all the strength but can't find a fit and the deal is a complete misfit.

crack the whip yes but at wich level ? and with a strong 65 i like to crack the whip twice.

Do you really think youre going to play 1DX (or 1MX) on this deal ?

if the opps have all the remaining strenght maybe partner going do bid a preemptive jump with 6H and 4C or with 5S and 4C.


The thing im wondering is

1D---pass----1H---pass
2H----2Nt

Why would 2Nt show both minors ?

why not

JTxxx
x
xx
AQxxx



1D---pass----1H---pass
2H----3D-----pass-----pass
3H----???

here however the 3Nt to show a goodish hand with both m is available and is a better call then 4C.

[skjaeran]

I'd never ever consider overcalling 2♣ with this hand. I don't see that as an option at all. The suit is too short and too weak. To me it totally misdescribes the hand.

Overcalling 2NT over 2♥ is far better, eventhough the suits differ a lot; diamonds are one card longer and has lots of intermediates. But you'll get the chance to raise partner's presumed club preference one level and help him evaluate his diamond holding at the same time.

And if it goes 3♥ p p you're still alive and can make another bid (preferably 3NT, I don't think double is correct then).

I'm still not confident that 2NT is the perfect bid, but it's absolutely clear to me that pass over 1♦ is 100% correct.