[awm]

Compare the following two auctions:

2♥ - Pass - Pass

1♥ - Pass - 1NT(forcing) - Pass
2♥ - Pass - Pass

In both cases you have some moderate hand with five spades. In which situation would you be more aggressive? Are there hands where you would bid in one auction but pass in the other?

Assume the opponents have a fairly normal style with respect to these openings and responses. If their opening bid style makes a big difference to you, feel free to comment.

[mike777]

more aggressive with auction 2.

with auction one I wouldhave at least 9 hcp
with auction two I might do it with less than 9 hcp.

[han]

Very good question. I'd be more aggressive in auction 2 because:

1. RHO does not have spades.
2. My upper limit is lower.

[skjaeran]

Hannie, on Nov 20 2007, 10:04 PM, said:

Very good question. I'd be more aggressive in auction 2 because:

1. RHO does not have spades.
2. My upper limit is lower.

I voted "About the same". In practice I'd tend to be slightly more agressive in auction 2, but not much so.

It's true RHO doesn't have spades, but unless they play F......, LHO surely might. But not as frequent as RHO has spades in the 2♥ p p scenario.

[MickyB]

Yup, I'd be much more aggressive in the second auction. Han covered the reasoning.

[Apollo81]

I voted about the same. In auction 2, LHO could have four spades behind me, so I don't think this is a "no risk" auction like some people are implying.

edit: in my area, RHO could also have 4♠ lol

[ArtK78]

My vote is about the same. But I am much more aware of the danger that RHO could have a spade suit in scenario #1. In #2, it is unlikely that either opponent has spades (LHO could have spades in #2, but it is not very likely).

[awm]

I'd be more aggressive in the second auction because my initial pass over 1NT limits my hand and will prevent partner going overboard. The reduced chances of either opponent having spade length also seem favorable.

I posted this because the last time I played at nationals, my team lost a bunch of partscore swings where my partner opened 2♥ and opponents balanced over 2♥-P-P whereas at the other table opponents opened 1♥ and bid as described, talking my teammates out of the auction. I was wondering whether this is a legitimate advantage for opening 1♥ on borderline hands, or whether our teammates were just too conservative.

[joshs]

awm, on Nov 20 2007, 03:45 PM, said:

Compare the following two auctions:

2♥ - Pass - Pass

1♥ - Pass - 1NT(forcing) - Pass
2♥ - Pass - Pass

In both cases you have some moderate hand with five spades. In which situation would you be more aggressive? Are there hands where you would bid in one auction but pass in the other?

Assume the opponents have a fairly normal style with respect to these openings and responses. If their opening bid style makes a big difference to you, feel free to comment.

This isn't close, auction 2 is much safer.

3 key differences:
1. In auction 2, neither opponent has 5 spades, and RHO doesn't have 4 spades. This is not true in auction 1.
2. In auction 2, I have already limited myself, and the range on 2S the second time is tighter.
3. Lets suppose responder is 3145 and opener has a good 6 card heart suit. If Opener opens 2H with 10 and responder has 16 (and probably even with 17) this should get passed out with 26 high. There really are not combos that add to 26 in which responder does not make an immediate 2/1 bid with this shape or opener jump rebids 3H (15 and a very good suit is probably enough) or responder bids an INV 2N next. Consequently, in the second auction the opps are limited to about 24, while in the first they can have up to 26.

[MFA]

I agree that one could be more frisky in (2), but there are other considerations too:

In (1) I'll bid 2♠ on some quite awkward hands (with bad ODR, but points) because we might have a game. These hands will go quitely in the other auction, prefering to defend and trusting the opponents to have their overall values.
On the other hand, I'll let go of some trashy (but shaped) hands after 2♥-p-p, since partner will bury me if I take a bid with nothing.

In (2), we're competing exclusively for the partscore, since we both have passed. So all I really need is a good ODR, points "don't matter". I could be quite weak.

ODR= offensive/defensive ratio.

So there are hands I will bid only in (1), and hands I will bid only in (2)!

[jdonn]

It's a bit deceptive since the first auction is certainly more common to bid 2♠ than the second. But that is because most hands that bid 2♠ on the first auction would have bid it on the first round on the second auction, so they don't exist. The second auction still has a lower minimum for the reasons already stated.

[mike777]

I do not know what all these other posts mean....hope my post means something

[whereagles]

More aggressive in auction 1. In acution 2 opps have exchanged even more information than in auction 1 and opener is stronger.

Note that in auction 1, responder is the only one who can dbl and he's sitting before me opposite a weak pard. He'd need to have a pretty good hand to dbl.

In auction 2 it is extremely risky to bid. Even more than bidding 1st round. Both LHO or RHO can make a card-showing dbl and you might be in serious trouble.

So yeah, I think you guys are getting it wrong

[lilboyman]

awm, on Nov 20 2007, 07:14 PM, said:

I'd be more aggressive in the second auction because my initial pass over 1NT limits my hand and will prevent partner going overboard. The reduced chances of either opponent having spade length also seem favorable.

I posted this because the last time I played at nationals, my team lost a bunch of partscore swings where my partner opened 2♥ and opponents balanced over 2♥-P-P whereas at the other table opponents opened 1♥ and bid as described, talking my teammates out of the auction. I was wondering whether this is a legitimate advantage for opening 1♥ on borderline hands, or whether our teammates were just too conservative.

The quality of the spade suit is the most important decision on whether to balance. With a very good suit balancing may be okay over the 1st auction as the opponents will be reluctant to double you to game without some spade tricks. Your RHO could have more than an average number of spades and a max pass in which case expect a double if your suit is poor and a poor result.

[Edmunte1]

Definitely second. Very important is partner reaction/expectancy on very situation.
On first partner's expectancy would be an opening hand with spades, on second not so necesarily as long as some spade support and some values in his hand are almost a certainity. So on second case partner would usually pass, so 2♠ can be made on weaker hands than in the first action