[jdonn]

kenrexford, on Oct 10 2007, 06:40 PM, said:

Why are so many people pronouncing with absolutes what 4♣ says about spades without acknowledging that the post provider seems to have still never defined whether the cuebidding is aces-first or Italian? LOL

You can have it either way. If 4♣ could still have a spade control then 4♦ shows diamond control but you don't have spade control. But if 4♣ can not have a spade control then 4♦ shows spade control but you don't have diamond control.

[kenrexford]

jdonn, on Oct 10 2007, 07:15 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Oct 10 2007, 06:40 PM, said:

Why are so many people pronouncing with absolutes what 4♣ says about spades without acknowledging that the post provider seems to have still never defined whether the cuebidding is aces-first or Italian?  LOL

You can have it either way. If 4♣ could still have a spade control then 4♦ shows diamond control but you don't have spade control. But if 4♣ can not have a spade control then 4♦ shows spade control but you don't have diamond control.

Well, duh!

That was my point. And yet people have been claiming "4♦ denies a spade control" or "4♦ promises a spade control" as if either was clearly right without knowing what the Heck is agreed.

[jillybean]

I didnt notice this was still going on. I use Italian cues, I assume this partner does
too but as usual 'no agreement'.

[kenrexford]

Well, then there is your answer. Pass, because partner lacks diamond control. You will make exactly five on a good day. On a really good day, you make exactly four and get slightly above average, because a few knuckleheads end up too high.

[jillybean]

knucklehead heh?

[TheoKole]

I like to use Jacoby transfer and then bidding to the 4 level as a mild slam try after 1 NT opener. That way I can use Texas transfers with either weak or very strong hands.

After a super acceptance, of the transfer, I agree with the 4 club cue-bid if that is the way you play it, some play 4 clubs after a transfer as Gerber.

Even after a 4 diamond response, content yourself with 4 hearts and trust your partner to evaluate his hand. With a hand full of controls, he should bid on.

I have the impression that many people don't realize that the captaincy of the bidding can pass back and forth.

If you are not sure of where or how high you want to go, you can always bid to the limit of your hand and trust partner to reevaluate his hand in light of any new information.

Cheers,

Theo

[helene_t]

I like Mikeh's analysis. I tried to judge the slam prospects myself by means of LTC and by visualising opener's hand but was unable to reach a conclusion.

I thought starting with a cuebid and the asking keycards without having heard a spade control was inconsequent, but what Mark says makes a lot of sense.

[neilkaz]

Katherine, thanx for posting this very interesting hand that I have been giving lots of thought. What I will end up saying here when I analyse this hand may not completely agree with many of those others who've replied here.

First of all, you've stated you cue bid 2nd round controls. I'll assume that undiscussed PD's 3♥ super accept is any super accept (certainly not a very efficient use of S.Acc, but I'll get to that in a new post). It also seems "normal" that at your level (int/adv) and undiscussed that 4♣ and 4♦ are controls and that, off course you'd have bid 3♠ with a ♠ control and that opener knows that when replying 4♦. Anyhow, with RKCB you found out about the ♠ ace later on, and this leads to the main point of my analysis.

With RKCB you found out that opener has all 3 missing key cards !! Now we'll give him a max for his super accept of 4 trumps and 17 HCP. The 3 key cards are 11 HCP so that leaves 6 more HCP in his hand. So lets look at the combined hands with those know key cards. You still have 4 potential losers and PD's remaining 6 HCP need to cover 3 off them......

On a really good day, PD will have a doubleton ♣ and cover one of those losers with a ruff but that still leaves 2 losers for his 6 outside HCP to cover. But, wait a minute, he may have the J of trumps and only 5 outside HCP (again this assumed he supered with 17 HCP and 4 trumps) and it is even more unlikely he can cover 3 of those losers (2 if he can ruff a ♣).

So to my point ! Even assuming PD has the 17 HCP, 4 trumps, and knowing about those 3 key cards, I cannot state that 6♥ if a favorite to make !

Sure PD may hold Axx,KJxx,AKQx,xx and you're cold for slam or perhaps Ax,Kxxx,Axxx,KQJx and you're cold again. But lets give him a nicely control oriented Ax,Kxxx,AKx,Kxxx and one wonders what miracle is needed to take 12 tricks (and the defence may be too good to get fooled into a squeeze or to missplay if you pull trumps and cash the ace of ♠ and throw them in.)

Often times PD's 5 or 6 HCP outside of trumps may be scattered Quacks and you'll need a finesse or two to make slam. (Perhaps some endplay may work, but perhaps not) Once again, I doubt that after the great info you received after RKCB and giving PD a max, that 6♥ is a favorite.

On a bad day,things can go wrong after 4NT at the 5 level if you catch PD with fewer than 3 key cards.

Then again, what if PD super accepted with fewer than 17 HCP ? I certainly super accept with a good 16 HCP and 4 trumps and a ruffing value since I feel that my hand in combination with responders known 5 trumps is worth more than an opening 15-17 NT. I also super with a good 17 HCP, 3 trumps to a high H and a ruffing value. Some players super with almost any hand with 4 trumps. This can lead to a lucky distributional game with 15 opposite 7, or can force the opps to try to balance over 3♥ if it is their hand.

All in all, while I love the 6 card ♥ suit and two aces, the two doubleton jacks force me to be somewhat cautious as I don't think that after receiving great info about PD's 3 cards, that slam is a favorite.

I'd make a more mild slam try here. 4♣ is fine, but when followed by 4♦, I bid 4♥ which should show mild slam interest. Now when PD loves his hand in the context of what has been bid. ie.. Ax,Kxxx,Axxx,KQJx he can carry on for slam which is easy to bid after his 4NT when he finds you with 2 keys and the Q.

So what went wrong with the bidding ? Well, responder was a bit too optimistic, I think. .. neilkaz ..

[keylime]

Something else to consider: what does pard have and more importantly NOT have.

Pard has opened 1NT, and has jump rebid hearts, loving hearts. Thusly, they are on a maximum. Let's for argument sake's say it's 17 HCPs (for the record, they did own 17 hcps).

Once you have denied a spade control, pard will only keep cuebidding IF spades are well underwraps - he realizes that you can't have any spade control regardless of regular conventional cuebidding (denial cues are too advanced for this forum). That happened here with the 4D call. So, there's AK/AQ of spades accounted for. They likely have the KH for their superaccept, and they've just shown the A/K of diamonds.

Under the best of circumstances, we have AK of spades, KH, and A of diamonds. That's 14 of the 17 points they are likely to have. The only card now that helps you markedly, is the K of clubs, which means that diamonds are a problem, and clubs maybe a problem if there is 3 clubs opposite 3 clubs (which also happened).

Instead of using losing trick count, the 1NT opening should help you considerably in realizing that slam is not looking good once pard decided to cooperate with a 4♦ cuebid. It's a good hand to hand a competent declarer, but just a little short of what's needed.

[skjaeran]

Others have made good comments already.
I agree with 4♣ as a non-serious cuebid. If not using serious/non-serious 3NT 4♣ is absolutely borderline.
Over 4♦ I think 4♥ should be automatic. If partner can't move over that you should not be in slam.