[the hog]

What we played when we played against those methods, ie 8-12 openings and a 1H fert
(1H) X = 16+, precision style with 1S neg
1S = natural, opening bid
1NT = bal/semi bal 12-15
2C = opening bid, t/f to H
2D= natural
2H = 4H, long minor
2S = 4S long minor
2N = both ms
3? = 14-15, excellent 6+ suit, s/s

[akhare]

Impact, on Sep 18 2007, 08:17 PM, said:

Having almost 30 years experience of ferts:-

a) vulnerable ferts are a big mistake even at imps while at mps -200 is a frequent disaster. Corollary : for more than a decade I have resisted playing any system which required a vulnerable fert. Pass when vulnerable is a great option!

I can't hold a candle to Impact's 30 year experience, but for what it's worth, I concur with the statement.

DrTodd and I (foobar on BBO) having been playing a 1♥ fert system for a few years and switched over to playing FP only when non-vul.

We did go down -7 in a 1♥-X contract recently (in a 4-3 fit, but everything was wrong and the opps defended well too) and shudder to think of meeting such a fate if we had been vul...

[Gerben42]

Quote

We did go down -7 in a 1♥-X contract recently (in a 4-3 fit, but everything was wrong and the opps defended well too) and shudder to think of meeting such a fate if we had been vul...

just 300 points more

Don't tell me -1700 was siginficantly better than -2000.

[MickyB]

Quote

I used to play a lot against Carrot Club some ten years ago. When a competitive sequence occured where there was a fight for the part score we won 5-7 IMPs. ALMOST EVERY SINGLE TIME

Bizarre. Most of the time opener will be 11-13 balanced, in which case he has described his hand very well and rates to gain IMPs in a competitive auction.

Quote

The main reason why it sucks is that the 1♣ opener in competiton has to double on all 17+ hands (where he can't make a natural bid in a suit) even if the hand doesn't have a t/o distribution whereas a big club opener can pass those hands, knowing that partner will act.

Well, yes and no. If you don't have a takeout distribution and you don't have a suit to bid, you will be fairly balanced. These hands can choose to bid 2NT, double or pass depending on the actual hand and the auction.

I think it is unfair to compare how these hands are handled against a strong 1♣ opening. There is one type of hand that is well-placed in competition having opened a strong club, and that is it.

Try comparing it to SA. The 18-19 balanced hands are similarly poorly placed. Short club and 14-16 NT has a big following, and that too has to show the 17-19 bal hand at its second turn, no matter the level of the auction. In fact, you are better placed having opened a Swedish Club, because partner has had the opportunity to make a negative freebid/takeout double on the assumption that there is 11-13 bal opposite. Even if you play NFBs opposite a short club opening, you can't make them as frequently because partner may have a misfitting hand with clubs, whereas the Swedish Club guarantees either tolerance for your suit or GF values.

[skjaeran]

MickyB, on Sep 20 2007, 04:11 PM, said:

Quote

I used to play a lot against Carrot Club some ten years ago. When a competitive sequence occured where there was a fight for the part score we won 5-7 IMPs. ALMOST EVERY SINGLE TIME

Bizarre. Most of the time opener will be 11-13 balanced, in which case he has described his hand very well and rates to gain IMPs in a competitive auction.

Compared to the pair playing natural methods on the other table he's far behind. They have shown a 4-card suit or two, have found their fit and on occasion are bidding undisturbed. Whereas his partner only knows that opener has a balanced 11-13 and knows nothing about what suit(s) opener holds lenght in.

[jtfanclub]

skaeran, on Sep 20 2007, 12:32 PM, said:

Compared to the pair playing natural methods on the other table he's far behind. They have shown a 4-card suit or two, have found their fit and on occasion are bidding undisturbed. Whereas his partner only knows that opener has a balanced 11-13 and knows nothing about what suit(s) opener holds lenght in.

Hmmm? Take the auction:

1♣ (1♠) X (P)
1NT

X is takeout, promising 4 hearts or a GF hand.

If the 1 club is Carrot (so the hand is 11-13 balanced without 4 hearts), or SA (so the hand is 11-14 balanced or semibalanced, without 4 hearts) how is he worse placed?

How about an undisturbed auction? I don't play Carrot, but a hypothetical 2-way Precision might be....

1♣ 1♦
1♥ 1NT

In two-way, the auction shows....
1♣ 11-13 or 17+
1♦ 8+ hcp, any shape
1♥ 11-13, 4 card heart suit.
1NT 8-11 hcp, balanced, no 4 card suit.

Has this revealed more or less than the same auction in SA?

I don't buy the 'natural methods' argument compared to SA.

In Standard American, 1 club shows....

A) 12-14 hcp balanced, does not contain 4+ diamonds or a 5 card major
18-19 hcp balanced, coes not contain 4+ diamonds or a 5 card major
C) 11-22 hcp 5+ clubs or exactly 4-4-1-4 distribution, may have a 5 card major.

In an undisturbed auction, it takes about as long to determine whether it's A, B, or C, compared to a 2-way like "11-13 balanced or any 17+".

Now, if you play a system where 1 club always has 4+ and denies a longer suit...

[MickyB]

skaeran, on Sep 20 2007, 06:32 PM, said:

MickyB, on Sep 20 2007, 04:11 PM, said:

Quote

I used to play a lot against Carrot Club some ten years ago. When a competitive sequence occured where there was a fight for the part score we won 5-7 IMPs. ALMOST EVERY SINGLE TIME

Bizarre. Most of the time opener will be 11-13 balanced, in which case he has described his hand very well and rates to gain IMPs in a competitive auction.

Compared to the pair playing natural methods on the other table he's far behind. They have shown a 4-card suit or two, have found their fit and on occasion are bidding undisturbed.

Haven't they shown one suit of three-plus cards? I fail to see how showing a three-card minor, or even a four-card minor, is as useful to partner as promising tolerance for his five-card suit.

Showing your longer minor on a hand unlikely to want to play in it is as likely to help the opponents as it is to help you, and prevents you from immediately describing your hand well on an unbalanced hand with a primary minor suit.

Or are you arguing that we will start 1♣-P-1♦ (ART negative) when you are starting 1m-P-1X? This doesn't happen often, as a positive response is only showing 7+ points or so, and our 1♣-P-2m auctions, where 2m shows 5+cards, unbal, 7-11 or so (GF opposite strong hand, to play opposite weak NT) are likely more descriptive and preemptive than the bid chosen at the other table.

This post has been edited by MickyB: 2007-September-20, 15:10

[skjaeran]

There are several ways for us to win boards vs the 2-way 1♣.

1♣ - p (8-14 bal) - 1♦ (neg.) - 2♠ ("pre")
x (17+) - p - ?
We've bid to 2♠ on a 5-2 fit, there's no way they can know, and they won't penalize us. Instead of us going down, they bid to the 3-level in a not so good fit and go down. At the other table our pair bid unnopposed to 2NT making or it goes 1m - p - p - 1♠ - 1NT all pass, making or an overtrick.

1♣ - x (15+bal) - p (neg) - 1♠
p (11-13) 2♠ all pass. +110 for us
Other table: 1♦ (4+) - 1NT (15-17) - 3♦ all pass. +110 for us

1♣ - 1♦ (0-7) - x (6+) 3♣ ("pre") all pass. +110 for us.
Other table: 1♥ (4c) - p 2♥ all pass. +110 for us.

Playing MP our guys should not be allowed to play 2♥ in the last example, but at IMPs they will quite often. These are just a few possibilities. I'm sure there are positions where the 2-way ♣ would work in competition. But having played against these methods quite often in teams games, those didn't come up. We layed against this pair both in the district teams championship and the national league several times over a period of 3-4 years (32-board matches) and also met them in swiss teams tournaments "regularly" (8-board matches).

The 2-way ♣ has never been popular in Norway, so we very seldom (if at all) met other pairs playing it. It's been (and is) a popular method in Sweden. I don't think anyone over there has deviced a similar defence to it. The pair using those methods here genereally did well, both at IMPs and MP. Noone else used our defence though.

[MickyB]

Sure, there are auctions it will do badly on, and I've never encountered your defence before. I suspect I could come up with something that makes good use of the extra space to describe responder's hand immediately, reducing the potential for damage. Even using standard agreements, we will sometimes take penalties when you are in a 5-2 fit, and I'd expect us to do well from reaching our 5-2 or 5-3 major fit quickly more often than you will from reaching your minor fit quickly.

[skjaeran]

MickyB, on Sep 21 2007, 10:59 PM, said:

Sure, there are auctions it will do badly on, and I've never encountered your defence before. I suspect I could come up with something that makes good use of the extra space to describe responder's hand immediately, reducing the potential for damage. Even using standard agreements, we will sometimes take penalties when you are in a 5-2 fit, and I'd expect us to do well from reaching our 5-2 or 5-3 major fit quickly more often than you will from reaching your minor fit quickly.

I'm also sure there's several possible counter defences to our defence. But since nobody else plays our defence nor something similar as far as I know, and the 2-way ♣ isn't popular where we play, those defences wont't be 'discovered'.