[awm]

Take an auction like the following:

1♥ - 1♠ - 2♠ - 4♠ - PASS

Suppose that the 2♠ bid (showing a good heart raise) sets up a forcing pass situation. What does opener's pass over 4♠ mean to you?

[mikeh]

By 'good raise', do you mean gf? For me, this wouldn't be a fp, because for me 2♠ forces only to 3♥.

But, given that you have stipulated the pass is forcing, it simply shows one of two hands:

1) the more common: I can live with either 5♥ or double. I am asking partner to bid 5♥ with an offensively oriented hand and to double otherwise. My spade holding is only part of my considerations, and my pass could encompass a variety of holdings.

2) the less common: I am interested in slam, but (for whatever reason) can't afford a bid now. I intend to pull your double. What I do over your direct call remains uncertain, but I'll probably bid slam.

Of course, one can, and probably should, invert the meaning of pass and direct double. While I have not actually played it this way, good friends of mine do, and they claim (plausibly) that the inversion is effective.

[ArtK78]

To me, the pass shows shortness in the enemy suit. With 2 or more cards in the enemy suit, opener should double.

It is possible that opener intends to pull responder's double of 4♠ as a strong action - stronger than a direct action over 4♠. But otherwise the double is a warning that the opponents' suit is not under control or the hand is otherwise unsuited towards bidding on.

[awm]

Please ignore the slam try possibility for now.

I guess what I'm wondering is, I've seen a number of forcing pass decisions on these forums (most recently a couple threads by Frances). And I see people suggest things like:

(1) "I'll bid on, partner almost surely has a singleton/void/big two suiter for his forcing pass."

(2) "I'll pass, I don't want to discourage partner from bidding on (despite holding minimum values and a high honor in the opponents trump suit)"

Obviously sometimes this sort of thing is situational and depends on the auction, level, etc. But it seems weird that some people advocate bidding on based on an assumption that partner has shortage for the forcing pass whereas in seemingly similar auctions some of the same people pass with Hxx in the opposing suit.

[skjaeran]

mikeh, on Sep 14 2007, 10:25 PM, said:

given that you have stipulated the pass is forcing, it simply shows one of two hands:

1) the more common: I can live with either 5♥ or double. I am asking partner to bid 5♥ with an offensively oriented hand and to double otherwise. My spade holding is only part of my considerations, and my pass could encompass a variety of holdings.

2) the less common: I am interested in slam, but (for whatever reason) can't afford a bid now. I intend to pull your double. What I do over your direct call remains uncertain, but I'll probably bid slam.

I agree with Mike here. You've got to evaluate your hand in each situation based on the bidding. I've got no strict rules about holding in the enemy suit, normally I can tell partner's length (and he mine) from my (his) hand and the opponents bidding. I evalueate my offensive and defensive potential and fit with partner, and makes a forcing pass/double/bid based upon this. Passing tells partner (if we forget about pass-and-pull slam tries) that I'm unable to decide wheter to defend or not, and passes ( ) the decision to partner.

[joshs]

I don't think its anything close to the list you gave.

Pass is "I am not sure if we will get a better score defending or bidding on". It doesn't show a particular feature, and the class of hands that take these actions changes depending on the Vul. X and bidding on are both strong opinions in the direct seat in front of an unlimited partner. Pass is the most common bid here.

You will pass with any of the above:
1. A min and a stiff or 3 small in the opps suit (maybe 2 small also in this auction) [You don't have enough offense to go to the 5 level, but your defense is poor] Perhaps 3 bare aces and 3 small in the opps suit should x instead of passing at equal vul.
2. Enough to make 5M, but enough defense that you think xing them might be worth more than the value of the game (so extras but 2 cards in the opps suit, or extras and an honor in the opps suit without that much extra shape). This is a High card pass. If partner tries for slam you will accept. But if partner x's you will sit.
3. Some extra offense, but some extra defense also, and you are just not sure if you can make 5M. An example here might be extra shape, but a wasted honor in the opps suit and minimal high cards (Say Ax KQxxxx Kxxx x)


Note: Kings and Q's in the opps suit are the most defense cards here. Aces are slightly defensive (no promotional value) but will often be worth a trick on offense. Jack's are defensive, but doesn't constitute much wastage, so you will often have enough offense in the other suits to contemplate bidding on.

[Cascade]

ArtK78, on Sep 15 2007, 08:38 AM, said:

To me this wouldn't be a forcing pass.

Quote

To me, the pass shows shortness in the enemy suit.  With 2 or more cards in the enemy suit, opener should double.

This seems extremely wide ranging to me. There is a big difference between:

♠ xx and ♠ KQJT

[awm]

Here are some example hands for opener, made similar on purpose. Again, let's assume that the 2♠ bid creates a force (maybe it's a GF raise and there's some other way to make a limit raise).

♠x ♥KQxxx ♦Axx ♣Kxxx
♠xx ♥KQxxx ♦Ax ♣Kxxx
♠Axx ♥KQxxx ♦x ♣Kxxx
♠Kxx ♥KQxxx ♦Axxx ♣x

[ArtK78]

Cascade, on Sep 14 2007, 04:36 PM, said:

ArtK78, on Sep 15 2007, 08:38 AM, said:

 

To me this wouldn't be a forcing pass.

Quote

To me, the pass shows shortness in the enemy suit.  With 2 or more cards in the enemy suit, opener should double.

This seems extremely wide ranging to me. There is a big difference between:

♠ xx and ♠ KQJT

I believe you are missing the point of the discussion.

The double in this situation is not a command - it is a warning. It says that my hand is unsuitable for further bidding. The reason is usually losers in the opponents' suit.

The possibility of holding KQJT in the opponents' suit is so small that it should be ignored.

However, if you do hold KQJT in the opponents' suit you should either double very loudly or double and immediately make the opening lead.

[Cascade]

ArtK78, on Sep 15 2007, 11:56 AM, said:

However, if you do hold KQJT in the opponents' suit you should either double very loudly or double and immediately make the opening lead.

Which would be the trump king!!!

[han]

joshs, on Sep 14 2007, 04:23 PM, said:

I don't think its anything close to the list you gave.

Pass is "I am not sure if we will get a better score defending or bidding on". It doesn't show a particular feature, and the class of hands that take these actions changes depending on the Vul. X and bidding on are both strong opinions in the direct seat in front of an unlimited partner. Pass is the most common bid here.

Agree/

[Cascade]

ArtK78, on Sep 15 2007, 11:56 AM, said:

Cascade, on Sep 14 2007, 04:36 PM, said:

ArtK78, on Sep 15 2007, 08:38 AM, said:

 

To me this wouldn't be a forcing pass.

Quote

To me, the pass shows shortness in the enemy suit.  With 2 or more cards in the enemy suit, opener should double.

This seems extremely wide ranging to me. There is a big difference between:

♠ xx and ♠ KQJT

I believe you are missing the point of the discussion.

The double in this situation is not a command - it is a warning. It says that my hand is unsuitable for further bidding. The reason is usually losers in the opponents' suit.

I don't think I am missing the point.

You have three (types of) action:

1. Doubling

2. Passing

3. Bidding on - various actions.

If pass was forcing then I would have these mean:

1. Double - I want to defend.

This would be based on wasted trumps and possibly other defensive cards.

2. Pass - I am unsure of whether I want to defend or bid on

This would be based on a neutral trump (opponent's suit) holding like xx or xxx or maybe even x. Or insufficient values to bid on.

3. Bidding on - I have the extra distribution and/or suitable strength to bid on

This would be based on extra distribution x or void in the opponent's suit or maybe Ax and enough strength to bid at the five-level or too little defense to want to defend. xxxx is another possible trump holding where I would consider bidding on with the right cards.

[keylime]

For me, a pass would say, "Pard, please double if you can - if you can't double I know you'll be 2 suited or if you bid 5M it's a delayed slam try.". Then again, a cuebid is a G/F with us, and we a form of PDI (pass-double inversion); a double is takeout oriented in this position.

[FrancesHinden]

I also find your list too prescriptive.
Assuming a forcing auction (again for me your sample auction wouldn't be), then in general double means one of two things, either

i) I don't think we are making at the 5-level
or
ii) I think we are getting a larger penalty than our score for making at the 5-level

(or some waited expected value version of these e.g. I think we're getting at least 500 and have only a 50/50 chance of making +650)

Bidding means one of two things, either
i) I think we are making at the 5-level, and the penalty will not compensate [depending on the bid, it may be a slam try]
or
ii) I am concerned they may be making their contract

Passing says none of the above is true [or you have a strong slam try]

Exactly what holding you have for these actions depends a lot on how much you have shown your hand in the auction so far. Take a slightly different version of your sample auction, which I would play as forcing

1♥ - 1♠ - 3♠ (splinter) - 4♠
?

Opener has said nothing about their hand other than it's an opening bid with 5+ hearts. He can have anything from a 0760 to a 4522. The only thing he knows is his partner's spade holding. I would expect opener to pass fairly often, to bid rarely, to double slightly more often than to bid. Double would imply a non-offensive hand short in controls and high in defence. It wouldn't necessarily have anything wasted in spades; I would double on Jx KJ10xx KJx QJx because I want to warn partner my hand is not suitable for bidding on. It's usual to assume the opponents are not insane, so partner would never expect a trump stack.

However, take an auction with the opponents NV against you Vul such as
1♥ - (P) - 2♣ [game forcing] - (4♠)
?

Opener can have some pretty significant in spades, QJ10x or so, and partner's hand is totally unknown other than the club suit - it could have primary heart support. So here opener's double, to me, would often have a couple of trump tricks.

[Fluffy]

IMO pass on forcing pass is offensive, shows extras to play at the 5 level.