[paulg]

One of the pleasures of mentoring is when your mentee produces a real good sequence so I thought I'd share it. I think it's just a coincidence that we'd covered slam bidding last week, but this random hand appeared this evening ...

Scoring: IMPs

1♥ - 1♠
3♥ - 4♦*
5♣* - 5♠*
6♦* - 6♥
7♥ - Pass

*cuebids

---

I feel that a number of good bids and inferences are made in this auction.

• North's 3♥ rebid is well judged, upgrading the hand with semi-solid hearts and spade fit.
  
• South's 4♦ is a cuebid agreeing hearts - not natural as why introduce a new suit when partner has a single suiter? Actually South is looking for the ♠K to bid the grand slam.
  
• North's 5♣ is correct as he is always bidding slam now, so plans to show the ♠K on the next round.
  
• South's 5♠ is a grand slam try. It must show a heart honour as North has not guaranteed a solid suit.
  
• North's 6♦ is the bid of a man who just kept on cuebidding without thinking too much about the final destination. The subsequent 7♥ bid should really have been made on this round.

An excellent effort, especially considering that there was over 30 people in the audience watching every move.

I particularly like this hand as it shows how a beginner can develop the confidence to bid a grand slam without using any form of Blackwood.

Paul

[Trpltrbl]

I like 5 as Grandslamforce, but to tell me that 6 is something is a little bit too much.
And after pd bid 6 where did you the nerve to bid 7? Your pd just told you he wanted to play in 6 and you basically overrulled him/her.
I don't think that is good practice.

Mike

[inquiry]

cardsharp, on Feb 2 2004, 05:14 PM, said:

Scoring: IMPs

1♥  - 1♠
3♥  - 4♦*
5♣* - 5♠*
6♦* - 6♥
7♥  - Pass

*cuebids

---

Good teaching Paul, it is a large leap in ability to learn that you don't have to use RKCB.

Having said that, I am a little confused by the auction. South bid the grand slam, but he NEVER found out about the fitting ♠King. The 6♦ cue-bid as you note hardly helps. But north will still be hard press to bid the grand slam, since he doesn't know about the ♠Q.

The best feature in North's hand (besides the solid ♥s) is the fitting ♠ card. I think showing that card is a big help in reaching the right contract with certainty.

Ben

[irdoz]

I am confused by Mike and Ben's comments.

The way I read the auction is that North bid the grand slam (not south).

North has no way of counting 13 tricks and from norths perpective the slam may rely on the Q of spades and discarding any club losers on the long spades (maybe I'm not seeing it right...) - but as north has not shown their king of spades before 6h i don't think 7h is too unreasonable (and the initial comment about bidding 7h over 5sp seems right to me if you were going to bid it after 6d-6h anyway and north knows the king of spades is likely to be a key card)

[inquiry]

Sorry to confuse you, its hard to follow north/south.. the point is neither partner is in position to bid the grand slam. Sure North knows he holds the ♠K, but it was this card that allowed (according to paul) that allowed the up-evaluation to jump rebid 3♥. Now hte same up-evaluation is worthy to bid the grand slam.

The problem on this auction, is south doesn't know about the ♠King (else can count likely 13 tricks, 1♣+1♣ruff+6♥+1♦+4♠ (after 1 ruff if partner is short in ♠s). And north doesn't know about the ♠-Queen, he can't be certaini there is not a ♠ loser. After all, how differently would SOUTH bid if he held:

---

And that is the point.

[paulg]

inquiry, on Feb 3 2004, 04:57 AM, said:

Sorry to confuse you, its hard to follow north/south..  the point is neither partner is in position to bid the grand slam. Sure North knows he holds the ♠K, but it was this card that allowed (according to paul) that allowed the up-evaluation to jump rebid 3♥. Now hte same up-evaluation is worthy to bid the grand slam.

The problem on this auction, is south doesn't know about the ♠King (else can count likely 13 tricks, 1♣+1♣ruff+6♥+1♦+4♠ (after 1 ruff if partner is short in ♠s).  And north doesn't know about the ♠-Queen, he can't be certaini there is not a ♠ loser. After all, how differently would SOUTH bid if he held:

Dealer: ????? Vul: ???? Scoring: Unknown

♠ A9854 ♥ A3 ♦ A8653 ♣ 3

And that is the point.

Personally I don't think this hand is worth the 5♠ grand slam try, but would just bid 6♥ directly.

However I agree that both parties are slightly in the dark on the auction and the grand could be a poor proposition. But North has seen South make a grand try, he has cuebid rather than Blackwood (perhaps implying a second fit would be useful) and either the ♠Q or ♦K is likely to make grand a good proposition, so I feel it's a reasonable attempt.

p

[Free]

The way I play it, 3♥ shows 6+♥s and a 3 card ♠ No problems to find 7♥, 7♠ or even 7NT (!!), depending on how the bidding continues.

[luis]

Do you really think this was good bidding or just some bids to a great contract ?
I really don't understand how ANY of the players can be sure of a grand and I'm sure there're more simple and "healthy" ways to bid this hand:

1h - 1s
3h - 4c
4d - 4n
5s - 5n
7h

Just normal control exchange (4c, 4d) some RKCB discovering the hK, HQ and the cA and then over 5NT the sK is worth a 7h bid.

In particular I really don't like the 4d cuebid bypassing the singleton club and endplaying pd in the bidding. Now after 5c you can't use RKCB and will end up shooting 6 or 7 at some point.

[Free]

I agree with Luis, bypassing your ♣ control isn't right, and bidding 7♥ is based on open hands or wishful thinking rather than good bidding. There are ways enough to find out about the needed cards...

[paulg]

luis, on Feb 3 2004, 01:40 PM, said:

Do you really think this was good bidding or just some bids to a great contract ?
I really don't understand how ANY of the players can be sure of a grand and I'm sure there're more simple and "healthy" ways to bid this hand:

1h - 1s
3h - 4c
4d - 4n
5s - 5n
7h

Just normal control exchange (4c, 4d) some RKCB discovering the hK, HQ and the cA and then over 5NT the sK is worth a 7h bid.

Luis,

Of course your "normal" is well above the level of beginners and the concept of bidding second round controls before first is not in most Slam Bidding 101 (i.e., beginners) courses. Of course it may be standard for beginners in some countries but not in the UK. Of course this free style of cuebidding mandates the use of Blackwood in most slam auctions.

The same can also be said for the availability of RKCB. It is not part of SAYC, the system used here, although many beginners are keen to add it to their system.

Quote

In particular I really don't like the 4d cuebid bypassing the singleton club and endplaying pd in the bidding. Now after 5c you can't use RKCB and will end up shooting 6 or 7 at some point.

I agree and didn't like it either. As I said previously the auction is not perfect and the grand certainly not assured. However I've yet to see a sequence that is appropriate for the BIL that allows it to be bid with more confidence.

Cheers

Paul

[inquiry]

I agree with paul, for beginners this auction is a big step forward. And I said so in my first reply. Their auction is usuals 1♥-1♠-4NT or similiar. It will take a while to get use to the right sequence of cue-bidding.

Ben

[luis]

Paul,

I'm not familiar with cuebidding style in the UK so please forgive me if my proposed bidding was strange for you or your students.
My question is what is wrong with 4c-4d;4n etc? Even if you don't reach a grand seems to be more healthy that a bunch of cuebids and a final shot at the dark...

I've been at some of your sessions and I've seen some of your students and I know you are one of the best teachers at the BIL, I'd like to know what is your approach to teach slam bidding to BIL members, I usually recommend 1st/2nd round controls followed by RKCB and then a relay to ask for the queen and 5NT to show all the KCs asking to bid 7 or show specific kings if 7 is not sure.

I think that the presented style (in your auction) is actually better for experts than beginners, looks like Italian-style where Blackwood/KeyCard is rarely used and cuebids are used instead, I think that's not clear for beginners but maybe I'm completely wrong (again)

Luis

[paulg]

luis, on Feb 3 2004, 07:23 PM, said:

Paul,

I'm not familiar with cuebidding style in the UK so please forgive me if my proposed bidding was strange for you or your students.
My question is what is wrong with 4c-4d;4n etc? Even if you don't reach a grand seems to be more healthy that a bunch of cuebids and a final shot at the dark...

I've been at some of your sessions and I've seen some of your students and I know you are one of the best teachers at the BIL, I'd like to know what is your approach to teach slam bidding to BIL members, I usually recommend 1st/2nd round controls followed by RKCB and then a relay to ask for the queen and 5NT to show all the KCs asking to bid 7 or show specific kings if 7 is not sure.

The traditional style is one where first round controls are always bid before second round controls. So 4♣ would imply a first round control, so 4♦ is technically correct in this style. I've only done one simple session on slam bidding but this is the style I proposed although I left 4NT as a form of Blackwood - trying to change this for beginners is too difficult

I haven't done a session on RKCB but your methods seem sound.

Interestingly most of the hands in my slam bidding session required them not to bid the slam!

Quote

I think that the presented style (in your auction) is actually better for experts than beginners, looks like Italian-style where Blackwood/KeyCard is rarely used and cuebids are used instead, I think that's not clear for beginners but maybe I'm completely wrong (again)

Luis

Actually I think the Italian style is a mix of our methods - free cuebidding of both 1st/2nd round controls with 4NT typically being used as a cuebid rather than Blackwood.

Paul