[ArcLight]

. - . - . p p
1♥ p 1♠ p
2♥ X p ?

Is the X a take out double or penalty. Why?

[barmar]

Takeout for the minors. They couldn't double on the first round because they didn't have Spades.

[DWM]

Take out, not sure why 2NT was not bid first round. but not pens

[skjaeran]

Since 2NT now definitley would be minors (what else?), this double is penalty.

[TimG]

skaeran, on Jul 4 2007, 03:53 PM, said:

Since 2NT now definitley would be minors (what else?), this double is penalty.

I agree that it is penalty. But, someone is going to tell you that 2NT is weak takeout and DBL is takeout that can stand a conversion. Never mind that they would be converting in front of opener's hearts.

[1eyedjack]

Penalty.
Have they expressed a fit? No
Could I have doubled on the previous round for takeout? Yes
End of chat, for me at least.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

penalty, at least the double shows
length in hearts, if you would want
to show the minors, you have 2NT,
being in near passout,opener
and responder are limited, 2NT can be
made on 5-4 or even 4-4 (you
had the chance to overcall with 5-5).

With kind regards
Marlowe

[whereagles]

Take-out of spades. Shows some hearts, of course.

[jtfanclub]

whereagles, on Jul 4 2007, 05:34 PM, said:

Take-out of spades. Shows some hearts, of course.

I think it's silly for it to show anything else.

More specifically, it shows 1-3-4-4 distribution with the 13th card in any suit. Should be in the 10-15 range, could be a little stronger if you can't stand offshape X's or NT's.

It should not, under any circumstances, be penalty. It's tough for me to imagine a hand that can penalty double both 2♥ and 2♠ (since why would you double to give them a shot to correct) across a 0 count, that would pass the first time around.

That doesn't mean you can't convert it, of course, if your twice-passed-hand happens to like defending. But passing is most decidedly not the default option.

Edited to add: And furthermore, I don't think that 2NT here is for the minors. It should show 12-14 hcp, a double stop in hearts, at least a half stop in spades, and tolerence for both minors. Why? Because there is no SAYC bid to show that hand over the 1 heart bid, it sounds like the auction is going to die at 2 hearts, and game is not completely out of the cards yet. It's embarrassing as heck to be suckered out of making 3NT because you don't have any calls to show a decent balanced hand.

If you REALLY have both minors, you'd have shown them the first time. If you just have 'eh' in both minors, both X and 2NT can show those without only showing them. As for a penalty double, I just don't need it across a twice-passed hand.

[mike777]

jtfanclub, on Jul 4 2007, 06:54 PM, said:

whereagles, on Jul 4 2007, 05:34 PM, said:

Take-out of spades. Shows some hearts, of course.

I think it's silly for it to show anything else.

More specifically, it shows 1-3-4-4 distribution with the 13th card in any suit. Should be in the 10-15 range, could be a little stronger if you can't stand offshape X's or NT's.

It should not, under any circumstances, be penalty. It's tough for me to imagine a hand that can penalty double both 2♥ and 2♠ (since why would you double to give them a shot to correct) across a 0 count, that would pass the first time around.

That doesn't mean you can't convert it, of course, if your twice-passed-hand happens to like defending. But passing is most decidedly not the default option.

Edited to add: And furthermore, I don't think that 2NT here is for the minors. It should show 12-14 hcp, a double stop in hearts, at least a half stop in spades, and tolerence for both minors. Why? Because there is no SAYC bid to show that hand over the 1 heart bid, it sounds like the auction is going to die at 2 hearts, and game is not completely out of the cards yet. It's embarrassing as heck to be suckered out of making 3NT because you don't have any calls to show a decent balanced hand.

If you REALLY have both minors, you'd have shown them the first time. If you just have 'eh' in both minors, both X and 2NT can show those without only showing them. As for a penalty double, I just don't need it across a twice-passed hand.

Strongly disagree. 2nt is 100% for minors. Do not compete in NT as natural.

[kenrexford]

I expect a big 1444. Cooperative.

[foo]

Very few expert pairs nowadays play X's of 2 level auctions like this as penalty.

Over an auction beginning (1H), I'd expect this X to show =1444.
Over an auction beginning (1S), I'd expect this X to show =4144

[neilkaz]

foo, on Jul 4 2007, 09:21 PM, said:

Very few expert pairs nowadays play X's of 2 level auctions like this as penalty.

Over an auction beginning (1H), I'd expect this X to show =1444.
Over an auction beginning (1S), I'd expect this X to show =4144

Yes and with a hand that can tolerate a penalty pass of 2♥x if PD has just the right stuff and has defensive tricks in case PD can X a 2♠ runout.

However, most likely PD will bid 3m.

A hand that doesn't have any interest whatsoever in cooperating with a penalty X would bid 2NT here, suggesting no better than 4-4 in the minors or 4-5 with the 5 being a suit too weak to overcall initially.

Using 2NT to show a hand just a bit too weak for a direct 1NT may work out, but it is rare to be able to stop ♥ well and also help in ♠ may be more useful than using 2NT to show minors and no penalty interest (noting that only very rarely will you be able to penalize ♥ and your PD penalize the 2♠ runout. Also, if PD has a hand that will allow us good play for 3NT he won't often allow the opps to buy this at the 2 level.

Just how I'd play it .. neilkaz ..

[jtfanclub]

neilkaz, on Jul 4 2007, 09:52 PM, said:

A hand that doesn't have any interest whatsoever in cooperating with a penalty X would bid 2NT here, suggesting no better than 4-4 in the minors or 4-5 with the 5 being a suit too weak to overcall initially.

I have a great bid to show that hand...it's called pass.

Partner's been listening to the auction. He heard the 1♥ bid, and knows that I'd bend over backwards to find a call if I had 4 spades or a six card minor. After the rebid of hearts, I suppose that there's some possible hand where I don't have tolerence for both minors, but I can't imagine what it would be.

There's no reason to think that they have a fit. If the total tricks is indeed 14, forcing the bidding to the three level is just sticking your neck out to get it chopped off. Even if you can make it, they were going down 3. Making a general 'pick a minor' bid with 4-4 when they don't have a fit is just bad bridge.

Quote

Also, if PD has a hand that will allow us good play for 3NT he won't often allow the opps to buy this at the 2 level.

Well, keeping in mind that this example is minimum across minimum, suppose you have:

Qx KJT KTxx KTxx

and partner has

Kxx xx AJx Q9xxx

3NT has a whole lot of play, if you declare it. Your partner isn't going to reopen the bidding, not with garbage like that. And again, that's minimum across minimum for 2NT-3NT.

Is it a rare event, that you'd want to bid 2NT as an option to play? You betcha. But it's a rare event that you want to step into an auction like this one this late in the game. It's a lot more likely to hurt than help.

Edited to add: Maybe there's just some confusion going on here. You're in direct seat. Your partner will get a chance to bid. He knows a lot more about your shape than you know about his, and the next call by the opponents will clarify things for him as well. Unless you have something special to show, you should really let him make the decision.

[rbforster]

I'm going to agree with the penalty doublers. What are you supposed to do with a good hand and 5+♥s? Pass then double.

You already passed over 1♥, when you could've doubled for takeout - no need for takeout twice. Likewise you didn't bid 1NT or double to show a bigger balanced hand, and you didn't bid 2 of a minor over 1♥. I just can't see the need to reserve a 2nd round double for shapes like 2344 14 counts - defend and set them a few, and in any case chancing the 3 level is too risky on bad shape. If you had better shape, you would've had a bid earlier.

[jtfanclub]

Rob F, on Jul 5 2007, 01:18 AM, said:

I'm going to agree with the penalty doublers. What are you supposed to do with a good hand and 5+♥s? Pass then double.

Let me give you an example of why I think that's silly.

Suppose you had the incredible powerhouse of:

AK4
AKJT9
987
T6

I think we'd all agree that's about as much as you could dream of having in the majors.

And yet...well, if you pass, LHO will probably pass too, and they'll play it in two hearts down a bundle. But if you X, LHO is either going to bid 2 spades or XX for rescue, and RHO will bid the two spades.

Can you set two spades? Doesn't look good. You have two spade tricks, but you and RHO have 11+ hearts between you, so it looks like at most one heart is coming home. Your partner's passed twice now, in spite of his nice shape, so counting on him for any tricks is not wise. It may very well make with an overtrick. And it wouldn't even have to be spades. They may SOS and find a fit that they could never get to without your help.

If you double for penalties on this auction, you also need to be able to double for penalties wherever they run to. And I claim that the hand that can do this but would pass the previous round doesn't exist.

Can you give such a hand?

If you have a penalty X of hearts and only hearts, pass. Then you can laugh when the opponents start arguing about how if they only wouldn't open so light, they'd be defending two hearts instead of playing it.

[P_Marlowe]

jtfanclub, on Jul 5 2007, 02:10 AM, said:

<snip>
If you double for penalties on this auction, you also need to be able to double for penalties wherever they run to.  And I claim that the hand that can do this but would pass the previous round doesn't exist.

Can you give such a hand?
<snip>

Hi,

In the given seq. you just need a reasonnable 5 card
heart suit and around opening strength + spade
shortage to make the double an option, thats all.

Because in this case partner will be sitting on the
spades.

Add the tendency of some players to raise
responders mayor with 3 card support, add the
possibility that the opponents play weak jump shifts
and you have a fair chance that if they run to 2S
they have at most a 5-2(3) fit, responder may even
hold only a 4 card spade suit, and partner is sitting
on at least 4(5) reasonable spades, and the hand
is not breaking well.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

I never saw this discussed in MSC or similar. Maybe just because it's obvious to everybody. It's not obvious to me.

As long as partner can pick a suit at the two-level, I think a t/o double is useful.
(1♣)-p-(1♦)-p
(2♣)-X
should clearly be take-out. If opener's suit is a minor and responder's is a major, I still strongly prefer to play it as t/o. Especially if responder's suit is spades because they can still run to 2♥ if a double was penalty.

But the shown sequence I would like to play as penalty. I have no idea if that it "standard". Also, if responder runs to 2♠, partner is invited to double that of course, but how many spades he needs to do that depends on how many spades my dbl implies.

[P_Marlowe]

helene_t, on Jul 5 2007, 02:24 AM, said:

I never saw this discussed in MSC or similar. Maybe just because it's obvious to everybody. It's not obvious to me.

As long as partner can pick a suit at the two-level, I think a t/o double is useful.
(1♣)-p-(1♦)-p
(2♣)-X
should clearly be take-out. If opener's suit is hearts and responder's is a major, I still strongly prefer to play it as t/o. Especially if responder's suit is spades because they can still run to 2♥ if a double was penalty.

But the shown sequence I would like to play as penalty. I have no idea if that it "standard". Also, if responder runs to 2♠, partner is invited to double that of course, but how many spades he needs to do that depends on how many spades my dbl implies.

This seq. is different, because responder
is still unlimited.

Make responder a passed hand and you have
a similar situation as the hand in discussion,
and I would say it is penalty.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: Of course it also depends on your agreements:
How strong needs partner to be to act over 1D, I prefer
a style, which only requires shape (4-4), but the HCP power
can be as low as 7.

[mike777]

jtfanclub, on Jul 5 2007, 02:10 AM, said:

Rob F, on Jul 5 2007, 01:18 AM, said:

I'm going to agree with the penalty doublers.  What are you supposed to do with a good hand and 5+♥s?  Pass then double.

Let me give you an example of why I think that's silly.

Suppose you had the incredible powerhouse of:

AK4
AKJT9
987
T6

color me simple..I bid 1nt over 1H.

I am not repeat NOT trap passing.