[vang]

helene_t, on Jul 5 2007, 09:24 AM, said:

I never saw this discussed in MSC or similar. Maybe just because it's obvious to everybody. It's not obvious to me.

bridge world standard

http://www.bridgeworld.com/default.asp?d=b...bwsall.html#VIH

If a player who passed over the opening bid next

A. [...]

B. doubles a one-notrump response, one-notrump rebid, or simple rebid in opener’s suit, that is for penalty.

[helene_t]

vang, on Jul 5 2007, 10:02 AM, said:

helene_t, on Jul 5 2007, 09:24 AM, said:

I never saw this discussed in MSC or similar. Maybe just because it's obvious to everybody. It's not obvious to me.

bridge world standard

http://www.bridgeworld.com/default.asp?d=b...bwsall.html#VIH

If a player who passed over the opening bid next

A. [...]

B. doubles a one-notrump response, one-notrump rebid, or simple rebid in opener’s suit, that is for penalty.

Thanx, Vang.

So even my example
1♣-1♦
2♣
could be doubled for penalties. This is surprising. Wonder if the authors really think this is technically sound or if they just wanted some simple, symmetric principles.

[Gerben42]

My rule is that if responder bid a new suit, Dbl is TO since you didn't have that suit (the actual auction).

If responder bids 1NT, however, Dbl is for penalty (1♥ - 1N - 2♥)

I am sure this auction is in Mike Lawrence's book.

[Fluffy]

penalty unless you have 3+ ♥s

[ArcLight]

I assumed it was penalty. I was holding 2 hearts, and thought pard might have 5, with declarer holding 6.

Guess I was wrong!

Pard was something like 2=2=5-4


2♥ making 4! Ugh




I don't care about the result, I just want to make sure I understand this sequence for the future.

What's interesting is not everyone here sees it the same way.

Thank you all for your input.

[jtfanclub]

ArcLight, on Jul 5 2007, 12:46 PM, said:

What's interesting is not everyone here sees it the same way.

And in many cases, I'm sure it's a surprise that not everybody plays it the same way. It's shocking to me that so many people play it as 5 hearts.

Perhaps the issue is the auction:

P---P--1♥-P
1♠-P-2♥-P
P---X

To me, that is 100% takeout of hearts, so having a bid to show long hearts and short spades is redundant. Wait for partner to reopen, and then convert the X. If partner doesn't reopen, they were making 2 spades anyways. I mean, that's the whole point of takeout doubles.

[1eyedjack]

jtfanclub, on Jul 5 2007, 07:40 PM, said:

Perhaps the issue is the auction:

P---P--1♥-P
1♠-P-2♥-P
P---X

To me, that is 100% takeout of hearts

Agreed.
Did I previously have an opportunity to double the same suit for takeout earlier in the auction? Ans: No.
So takeout.

I like to have simple rules to determine whether a double should be takeout or penalty. I am open to adding complexity to the rules provided that the existing algorithm is unplayable and a more complex one a clear improvement.

[skjaeran]

jtfanclub, on Jul 5 2007, 08:40 PM, said:

ArcLight, on Jul 5 2007, 12:46 PM, said:

What's interesting is not everyone here sees it the same way.

And in many cases, I'm sure it's a surprise that not everybody plays it the same way. It's shocking to me that so many people play it as 5 hearts.

Perhaps the issue is the auction:

P---P--1♥-P
1♠-P-2♥-P
P---X

To me, that is 100% takeout of hearts, so having a bid to show long hearts and short spades is redundant. Wait for partner to reopen, and then convert the X. If partner doesn't reopen, they were making 2 spades anyways. I mean, that's the whole point of takeout doubles.

This last double is clearly t/o for me.
I can bid 2♠ naturally, both over 1♠ and over 2♥.

[ArcLight]

jtfanclub, on Jul 5 2007, 01:40 PM, said:

ArcLight, on Jul 5 2007, 12:46 PM, said:

What's interesting is not everyone here sees it the same way.

And in many cases, I'm sure it's a surprise that not everybody plays it the same way. It's shocking to me that so many people play it as 5 hearts.

Perhaps the issue is the auction:

P---P--1♥-P
1♠-P-2♥-P
P---X

To me, that is 100% takeout of hearts, so having a bid to show long hearts and short spades is redundant. Wait for partner to reopen, and then convert the X. If partner doesn't reopen, they were making 2 spades anyways. I mean, that's the whole point of takeout doubles.

Too bad you have the wrong auction. What you show is not what I showed.

You show:


P---P--1♥-P
1♠-P-2♥-P
P---X


I showed


P---P--1♥-P
1♠-P-2♥-X


I asked an expert and he said that with traditional bidding, the DBL was penalty, (though others may have variations and not play it that way.)

[Gerben42]

Quote

Pard was something like 2=2=5-4

This is about what I would have expected, I'm quite surprised by some of the posts here.

[skjaeran]

Gerben42, on Jul 6 2007, 09:18 AM, said:

Quote

Pard was something like 2=2=5-4

This is about what I would have expected, I'm quite surprised by some of the posts here.

And why wouldn't partner bid 2NT instead of double with this?
I'm probably just as surprised by some of the posts here too - the other "half".

[barmar]

skaeran, on Jul 6 2007, 03:05 AM, said:

Gerben42, on Jul 6 2007, 09:18 AM, said:

Quote

Pard was something like 2=2=5-4

This is about what I would have expected, I'm quite surprised by some of the posts here.

And why wouldn't partner bid 2NT instead of double with this?
I'm probably just as surprised by some of the posts here too - the other "half".

Double allows partner the option to leave it in if HE has a bunch of trumps. 2NT should be used with a more distributional hand that really doesn't want to defend.

As they say in MSC: Doubles are flexible.

[jtfanclub]

ArcLight, on Jul 5 2007, 08:59 PM, said:

Too bad you have the wrong auction. What you show is not what I showed.

You show:


P---P--1♥-P
1♠-P-2♥-P
P---X


I showed


P---P--1♥-P
1♠-P-2♥-X

And my point is that, using what you say is standard,

P---P--1♥-P
1♠-P-2♥-P
P---X---P---P

and

P---P--1♥-P
1♠-P-2♥-X
P---P

Show *exactly the same hands*.

Think about it. Your partner is going go stretch to balance in 4th seath with short hearts. So if you penalty double, and your partner leaves it in, he was going to balance anyways, and you could have left it in. You don't need a penalty double here, because you can convert his takeout double later.

On the other hand, if partner has a total bust, and does not have 'four reasonable spades', the first auction lets them play in 2 hearts down a couple, while the second auction they run to two spades and make it.

Where you need the X is where partner could actually have some hearts, so he won't balance, and yet you don't have a better bid. 2-3-4-4 for example.

I'm still waiting for a sample hand for the penalty X.

[whereagles]

barmar, on Jul 6 2007, 02:54 PM, said:

Double allows partner the option to leave it in if HE has a bunch of trumps. 2NT should be used with a more distributional hand that really doesn't want to defend.

And why didn't that hand bid a straight 2NT on the 1st round?.. lol

[ArcLight]

jtfanclub, on Jul 6 2007, 10:41 AM, said:

And my point is that, using what you say is standard,

P---P--1♥-P
1♠-P-2♥-P
P---X---P---P

and

P---P--1♥-P
1♠-P-2♥-X
P---P

Show *exactly the same hands*.

Uh, no they don't.
Its different hands that are making the double.

You can't say that a bidding sequence means the same, regardless of which pard makes a double. The defenders don't have the same hands or limitations.

Also, I asked about a specific sequence, not a different one which you added.
(shich is ok, but its not the one I was asking about, and is a bit confusing, since it looks the same as first glance)


Hand 1 could be a hand that has 6 hearts but is not right for a weak 2. Perhaps it had a void or 4 card spade suit, whatever. Maybe it has Q J T 9 7 5 in hearts?
plus some outside defensive strength like Q J T in a suit and another high card like a king.

Hand 2 may have a heart holding like K J T 8 7 (4) , plus some outside balanced defensive strength, like queens and jacks and 10's



>Think about it. Your partner is going go stretch to balance in 4th seath with short hearts. So if you penalty double, and your partner leaves it in, he was going to balance anyways, and you could have left it in. You don't need a penalty double here, because you can convert his takeout double later


Pard will balance at the 3 level when the opponents have a misfit?
Responder is probably lickling his lips, looking for that red card. (since he bypassed his 5 card diamond suit to bid 1 spade on 4 spades)

[skjaeran]

barmar, on Jul 6 2007, 04:54 PM, said:

skaeran, on Jul 6 2007, 03:05 AM, said:

Gerben42, on Jul 6 2007, 09:18 AM, said:

Quote

Pard was something like 2=2=5-4

This is about what I would have expected, I'm quite surprised by some of the posts here.

And why wouldn't partner bid 2NT instead of double with this?
I'm probably just as surprised by some of the posts here too - the other "half".

Double allows partner the option to leave it in if HE has a bunch of trumps. 2NT should be used with a more distributional hand that really doesn't want to defend.

As they say in MSC: Doubles are flexible.

So you prefer partner to make a penalty pass sitting in front of (under) the 6c♥, instead of make a penalty double sitting with a trump stack behind. In the last instance partner might perfectly well be able to make a penalty double if anyone runs to ♠'s.

[jtfanclub]

ArcLight, on Jul 6 2007, 11:22 AM, said:

jtfanclub, on Jul 6 2007, 10:41 AM, said:

And my point is that, using what you say is standard,

CASE A:
P---P--1♥-P
1♠-P-2♥-P
P---X---P---P

and

CASE B:
P---P--1♥-P
1♠-P-2♥-X
P---P

Show *exactly the same hands*.

Uh, no they don't.
Its different hands that are making the double.

I added the CASE A and CASE B notations.

In Case A.
The person to the left of the 2♥ bidder has 5 hearts and 10-15 hcp.
The person to the right of the 2♥ bidder has 0-1 hearts and 5-10 hcp.

In Case B.
The person to the left of the 2♥ bidder has 5 hearts and 10-15 hcp.
The person to the right of the 2♥ bidder has 0-1 hearts and 5-10 hcp.

There are some other details too, but they all come out about the same. The same hand that would pass a penalty double also double for takeout across a pass.
The same hand that would make a penalty double would convert a takeout double.

Quote

Also, I asked about a specific sequence, not a different one which you added.

Yes, and my answer is, it's takeout with an option to leave in, not penalty.

As for why it's not penalty, my answer is because there is *a different auction that lets you penalty double*. So having it be penalty is redundant. You don't need two different auctions to show the same thing.

Quote

Hand 1 could be a hand that has 6 hearts but is not right for a weak 2. Perhaps it had a void or 4 card spade suit, whatever. Maybe it has Q J T 9 7 5 in hearts?  plus some outside defensive strength like Q J T in a suit and another high card like a king.

No. nonononono.

Nobody has suggested that an X UNDER the 2 heart bidder is penalty.

For Case A, the balancing double shows a hand like: QTxx x ATxx Qxxx. give or take two points.

Remember, the guy under the doubler never got a chance to double hearts for takeout before. So he should have an ordinary balancing double, except that he can be weaker since both opponents are limited.

Quote

Pard will balance at the 3 level when the opponents have a misfit?

If opener has a 6+ hearts, and you have 5 hearts, and responder passes (ie., not a void), then partner has at most one heart. So if he looks at his hand and sees a singleton heart, he knows there are only two possibilties:

1. Partner has 5 hearts.
2. They have a fit in hearts.

If partner has a singleton heart and 'four reasonable spades', then he knows in addition that they don't have a good runout to spades. Therefore, he can safely double. On the other hand, if he has crappy spades, he can see that 2 spades will probably make and let them play in 2 hearts undoubled (or bid 2NT).

Typical hands for case A:
Doubler (RHO of opener): QTxx x ATxx Qxxx
Passer (LHO of opener): x KJT95 Kxx AJxx

Typical hands for case B:
Passer (RHO of opener): QTxx x ATxx Qxxx
Doubler (LHO of opener): x KJT95 Kxx AJxx

So the guy to the left of opener doesn't need a penalty double- he can just wait for partner to reopen, because he KNOWS that partner is short in hearts.

The problem is the wishy-washy hands, the 2-3-4-4 types, where partner could easily have 3 hearts and therefore you have to bid now or forever hold your peace.

This is not unique to this auction.

Imagine that opener, instead of bidding one heart, had started with two hearts. Everybody agrees that a double here is for takeout, right? Well, why don't you need a double for a 12 count with 5 good hearts like the one above? Because you know partner is short in hearts. Therefore, if you pass, partner will probably X, and you can leave it in for penalties.

So if you made a direct X here for penalties, then the hands for
2♥ X P P (penalty double, left in), would look the same as
2♥ P P X P P (takeout double, converted to penalty)

I'm sure there are cases where the direct seat X should be penalty while the balancing seat X should be takeout, but they don't immediately occur to me.

[barmar]

whereagles, on Jul 6 2007, 10:41 AM, said:

barmar, on Jul 6 2007, 02:54 PM, said:

Double allows partner the option to leave it in if HE has a bunch of trumps.  2NT should be used with a more distributional hand that really doesn't want to defend.

And why didn't that hand bid a straight 2NT on the 1st round?.. lol

A distributional hand would have. The hand in the given auction obviously isn't so distributional. It sounds like a strong hand with 4-4 or 4-5 minors. In the latter case, the quality of the 5-card minor was presumably not up to the player's standards for a 2-level overcall.

If you really can set 2♥ in your own hand, should you announce it with the double? Won't this just convince them to run to a better suit? Can you really double anything they run to (how many trumps stacks can one defender have)? LHO is still unlimited, so you can't really expect much help from partner.