[SoTired]

jtfanclub, on Jun 28 2007, 03:26 PM, said:

SoTired, on Jun 28 2007, 01:57 PM, said:

"Overusing BW"... That's not what I see. I would welcome that. They NEVER BID SLAM.

Huh. I encourage beginners to not even think about slam...yet.

AH - HA... So You're the one

[jtfanclub]

SoTired, on Jun 28 2007, 07:57 PM, said:

jtfanclub, on Jun 28 2007, 03:26 PM, said:

SoTired, on Jun 28 2007, 01:57 PM, said:

"Overusing BW"... That's not what I see. I would welcome that. They NEVER BID SLAM.

Huh. I encourage beginners to not even think about slam...yet.

AH - HA... So You're the one

Yep. I also tell them that I'll play anything they want, but DO NOT open 2 clubs with any hand. Open it at the one level and jump, and if I pass it out we'll laugh about it later.

I'm talking beginner beginner here. Folks who don't understand fourth suit forcing, adjustments, reverses, and so forth. Why try to run before you can walk?

[Foxx]

On that note:

helene_t, on Jun 28 2007, 04:27 PM, said:

Telling the same story again and again. Opening multi and then competing to 3M without being encouraged by partner, for example.

I see no reason for any beginner to touch multi with a 10-foot pole. I've been playing for 8½ years and I've never played multi in any form myself.

[Gerben42]

Defense: Not covering honors with honors.

Opening Lead: Always leading a singleton against trumps if they have one.

Declarer Play: Trying to take as many tricks as soon as possible, rather than developing some.

Constructive Bidding: Keep on bidding in misfit situations until a suit is played that THEY have length in (don't mind partner).

Competitive Bidding: Passing because they only have 6 points (or similar) rather than SUPPORTING PARTNER with a fit.

[Gerben42]

Quote

Yep. I also tell them that I'll play anything they want, but DO NOT open 2 clubs with any hand. Open it at the one level and jump, and if I pass it out we'll laugh about it later.

I'm talking beginner beginner here. Folks who don't understand fourth suit forcing, adjustments, reverses, and so forth. Why try to run before you can walk?

AYE to that! Around here they start teaching beginners first strong 2 bids, then Benji. What's simpler than start with 4 weak two bids???

[cherdano]

jtfanclub, on Jun 28 2007, 07:56 PM, said:

SoTired, on Jun 28 2007, 07:57 PM, said:

jtfanclub, on Jun 28 2007, 03:26 PM, said:

SoTired, on Jun 28 2007, 01:57 PM, said:

"Overusing BW"... That's not what I see. I would welcome that. They NEVER BID SLAM.

Huh. I encourage beginners to not even think about slam...yet.

AH - HA... So You're the one

Yep. I also tell them that I'll play anything they want, but DO NOT open 2 clubs with any hand. Open it at the one level and jump, and if I pass it out we'll laugh about it later.

I'm talking beginner beginner here. Folks who don't understand fourth suit forcing, adjustments, reverses, and so forth. Why try to run before you can walk?

I hope you allow them to open 2♣ with a balanced 23hcp hand? Or with 25 hcp and 5422? I don't see why 2♣ auctions are inherently more difficult if you treat them 100% GF and just bid naturally after a semi-automatic 2♦ response.
That's what is popular among beginners and experts, players in between seem to be addicted to control-showing responses, 2nd negative, cue bids way too early, etc.

[DWM]

The mistakes that I have seen/Done far too often are

Bidding too high with misfits.

Not appreciating which bids are forcing/invitational/competitive.

Rebidding NT because shortage in responders suit. Or put differently, changing a hand from an unbalanced one to balanced just because of 1 bid from P.

Only planning the play midway through the hand, or not amending an initial plan when the unexpected happens mid play.

Asking unnecessary questions in the bidding.

[keylime]

1. The concept of partnership. Many players feel that they must grab the contract.

2. Understanding the concept of a forcing bid versus a nonforcing call. If beginners focused solely on this their bridge would improve markedly.

3. Opening 1C and rebidding 2D and not have it be extra values - the concept of reversing.

4. The lack of understanding Blackwood and cuebidding.

5. Lastly, attempting to gain expertise by substituting conventional agreements for hand evaluation.

<typed originally as Blackberry test; edited to get the formatting right>

[DWM]

To make another list. Rather than mistakes during play, these are what I think the biggest mistakes are beyond the bididng and card play

Playing blame games rather than constructive post mortums (if done at all)

Not learning from mistakes, and making the same ones again and again.

Changing your play/bidding because of one freak result.

Blindly adding something into your system without thinking of the effects it has on the rest of the system.

When you find a hole in the system you play just saying oh well and goign onto the next hand rather than thinking about it, reading up, asking advice on what can be done.

[jtfanclub]

cherdano, on Jun 29 2007, 05:52 AM, said:

I hope you allow them to open 2♣ with a balanced 23hcp hand? Or with 25 hcp and 5422? I don't see why 2♣ auctions are inherently more difficult if you treat them 100% GF and just bid naturally after a semi-automatic 2♦ response.
That's what is popular among beginners and experts, players in between seem to be addicted to control-showing responses, 2nd negative, cue bids way too early, etc.

If I was playing with them regularly, I would do so. However, I mostly get them when they end up playing at the club when I'm directing and their partner doesn't show. I find that switching it OFF is something they can do easily, unlike switching it to 'balanced 22-23 or absolute game force'. Playing it as most of them seemed to have learned it is a nightmare.

Not bidding many slams isn't just about bidding, it's also about psychology. Bidding 4 and making 6 is a smile and a shrug. Going down in slam can be devastating, even if you belonged there.

[helene_t]

Foxx, on Jun 29 2007, 12:31 PM, said:

On that note:

helene_t, on Jun 28 2007, 04:27 PM, said:

Telling the same story again and again. Opening multi and then competing to 3M without being encouraged by partner, for example.

I see no reason for any beginner to touch multi with a 10-foot pole. I've been playing for 8½ years and I've never played multi in any form myself.

I agree. For some reason multi has become popular among stronger players in the Netherlands and then everybody, down to beginners, immitate them. Multi is probably the 4th most popular convention in the Netherlands, after Stayman, transfers and Blackwood. More partnerships have agreed to play multi than have agreements about whether they play negative freebids or not. More players know their own favorite answers to the strong 2N relay to multi than know how to respond to a t/o double with ten HCPs.

Part of the reason could be that it's fun to play crazy conventions and laugh at the ridicolous bidding disasters they lead to. I can certainly sympatize with that, I used to play way too many conventions myself. Another reason could be that multi actually can produce some nice results against beginnners and iregular partnerships who did not discuss defense against it or, more likely, just panic because they think it's a huge problem that they didn't discuss a defense. I would have less sympathy with that case for playing multi.

[bid_em_up]

Most of these have probably been said already, but here goes:

1) Rebidding the same values over and over.
2) Reversing when they do not have sufficient values to do so.
3) Failure to plan the play in advance. This includes counting winners, counting losers, and deciding how they will develop the extra tricks necessary in advance, along with how they are going to get to and from each hand to cash those tricks.
4) Overbidding good hands, and underbidding what they think are bad hands (but may be quite good in the context of the auction).
5) Failure to count cards on defense. Both at trick one, and during the play of the hand.

Although not really a mistake in and of itself, I would include failure to follow/watch the play closely when dummy as an error. Much can be learned by paying attention to how good declarer's play or good defenders defend. Most beginners tend to "wander off" mentally, the minute they become dummy.

[mycroft]

1) I think that one of the biggest "beginners" mistakes is not to play up at least some of the time. Playing against weaker opposition all the time teaches you things that work against them, but that get you slaughtered against good players. Don't do it all the time, because it's disheartening, but a couple of "you stepped out too far, here's sticks and wheels to prove it" every once in a while teaches them first that those kinds of calls are dangerous (even though they steal the beginner game blind), and second, to see when their opponents do it so they get +800s of their own.

Too many people are good I/N players, but stay there too long; they then find the jump to the open game (and the result average drop from 62% to 42%) too much to handle, so they quit.

And this doesn't only apply to beginners; I know of players with 1400 MP who won't play in smaller regionals because they would have to play in A...

2) This one kills beginners: they listen to too many people. Bridge is the epitome of the Perl Principle, and There's *always* More Than One Way To Do It. But they get this from player A, and that from player B, and the other from player C, and suddenly their bidding system is a hodgepodge of random conventions that don't work together even if they could remember it all, and they don't really understand *why* they're playing it, so they don't use the information they get anyway.

3) "Don't do anything for no reason." If you have a reason for your play, even if it's wrong, you can learn. If you don't know why you did it, nothing can help you.

Corollary: Unless it's from your teacher, or your regular partner in private, after the game, the answer to "Why did you..." or "Why didn't you..." is "because I'm an idiot." It's what your partner wants to hear, and he won't quit asking questions until he gets it from you, so tell him that right off the top. If you really weren't thinking, that's bad - don't do it again. Otherwise, the unspoken half of the response is "...for agreeing to play with you."

Corollary #2: Don't ask "Why did you..." or "Why didn't you..." questions (except with your regular partner, after the game, in private). The question you're really asking is "I'm smarter than you are. Don't you agree?" and it's the best way of turning your partner into CHO.

4) Know Your System, and Play It. Mistakes or violations of system are okay with other beginners, because of the above - they don't use the information anyway. But when you play(for instance) Fourth Suit Forcing (second round jumps invitational) with a non-beginner, and don't make the call, that says something. If you should have used 4SF, that something is usually +200. Know Your System and Play It (and don't let anyone change it as pickup), and partner will at least know what you have in your hand.

I realize that this isn't true "beginners" I'm talking about...
Michael.

[ochinko]

How about this for rebidding the same values over and over again?

Scoring: IMP

---

The bidding goes
1♦ - (Pass) - 1♥ - (1♠)
2♥ - (2♠) - 3♦ - (Pass)
3♥ - (3♠) - 4♥ - (Dbl)
Pass - (4♠) - 5♦ - (Pass)
Pass - (Dbl) - All Pass

North found his hand good enough to bid it four times instead of once. Wouldn't mention it if it didn't say "expert" in his profile.

-5; -14.6 IMPs

[Trumpace]

This thread has shattered my definition of a beginner: Multi? Reverses? Slam bidding?

When I was a "beginner", I had trouble even counting HCP. Most of the bidding I did when I was a beginner was looking at a printout describing the bidding... (so applied very little judgement luckily: helped my play)

Some common mistakes I have seen:

1) Thinking you are so "good" that you don't _need_ to read any books.

2) Coming to Bridge conclusions based on results. (very common and annoying when better players do it)

3) Playing an honour whenever you get the chance to win a trick.

4) Overvaluing strong hands: 1NT - 3NT - 6NT.

5) Always leading from shortness (singleton/doubleton) against suit contracts.

[jtfanclub]

ochinko, on Jun 29 2007, 01:57 PM, said:

North found his hand good enough to bid it four times instead of once.

And in the four bids, he didn't once mention his six card suit.

[JavaJoe]

Passing an unusual bid, just because they don't understand it.
Not understanding "pre-emption bids". Not bidding them high enough or raising them thinking that partner is bidding for strength.
Not looking at what an unknown opponent plays. Play the simplistic version of the two of you.
Don't trot out Leibonsow (sp) if you're an expert without knowing if your partner knows what it means.
BTW, I used to play a lot of bridge, but then my job got in the way, so after about an 8 year layoff, I am trying to re-learn the game.
I say that just to say that I was playing in a large tournament one time (I think the Nationals) and a bid sounded strange to me and I asked the opponent if that was Leibonsow and he gave me a little grin and said "yes" When I looked at his name tag, it was THE Leibonsow whom I was playing against. (Red Faced Moment!)

[ArcLight]

Jlall, on Jun 28 2007, 03:20 PM, said:

1) Not counting shape

2) Not counting winners/losers

3) Not counting HCP

4) Pulling trump too early

5) Relying on signals rather than thinking


Really who cares about bidding if you are not thinking about cardplay fundamentally correctly. It will never matter how good your bidding is if you can't do this.

I would say these mistakes are also made by intermediates and many BBO "Advanced" players and even some BBO "Experts".*

These are core skills that should be taught from day one, as opposed to conventions. This is my big gripe in BIL. There are tons of lessons on "Improving J2NT", an "Improved Puppet Stayman" when these players are leading unsupported aces, bidding Reverses with a minimum opener, not knowing basic carding such as playing Q from QJ when pard leads the A from AK, etc.

==================================
Take Out doubles are scary by those below "Advanced" as you never know whats going to happen. Pard has a stiff King in the opps suit and raises your jump response to game with 11 HCP (counting the stiff K).

==================================

* = not true Advanced and Expert players, just those who misrepresent themselves.

[Badmonster]

Yelling at p for last hand while they're trying to play this one.

[ArcLight]

Badmonster, on Jul 10 2007, 08:04 AM, said:

Yelling at p for last hand while they're trying to play this one.

That is exhibited at all levels, up to world class.