[jillybean]

Hi,
CrissCross appears to be straight forward:

1♣:2♦ game force ♣'s
1♦:3♣ game force ♦'s

1♣:2♣ constructive ♣'s
1♦:2♦ constructive ♦'s

Is 1♦:2♣ natural ?

Can anyone add anything to this. I can only find one site if I google it and I can't locate it on BridgeGuys

tyia
jb

[Echognome]

I actually play that in reverse, to leave maximum room to explore for slam after the inverted raise.

[jillybean]

In reverse do you mean 1♣:2♣ and 1♦:2♦ as the gf raises?
What is the difference between this and Inverted minors?

[iggygork]

I thought the reverse of this was "standard". As opposed to the standard inverter minors, the invitational minor suit hands are handled with the jump to the other minor, so 1♣-2♣ and 1♦-2♦ are pure game forces. 1♦-2♣ is natural, but now probably has to be inv+ even in a 2/1 GF framework. That is one of the most difficult auctions in 2/1 anyway, so overloading the 2♣ response with the inv. club hands probably makes it even tougher to devise suitable continuations after it.

When I played this with a partner, the criss-cross never really came up and when it did we were not that better off than those pairs who used "standard" inverted raises of minors. If you have a good structure in place after your inverted minor raises, you can probably dispense with criss cross and have the benefit of 1♦-3♣ as inv. clubs.

[cherdano]

jillybean2, on Jun 19 2007, 11:17 PM, said:

In reverse do you mean 1♣:2♣ and 1♦:2♦ as the gf raises?
What is the difference between this and Inverted minors?

Inverted minors is 1m-2m = invite or better (10+) and 1m-3m = 6-9.

Criss-cross the way I know it is 1m-2m = GF, 1m-3m = 6-9, and 1C-2D and 1D-3C = invite.

[foo]

jillybean2, on Jun 20 2007, 12:01 AM, said:

Hi,
CrissCross appears to be straight forward:

1♣:2♦  game force  ♣'s
1♦:3♣  game force  ♦'s

1♣:2♣ constructive ♣'s
1♦:2♦ constructive ♦'s

Is 1♦:2♣ natural ?

Can anyone add anything to this. I can only find one site if I google it and I can't locate it on BridgeGuys

tyia
jb

1st, you should know that there are multiple conventions running around all called "criss cross"

1= In Contested Auctions, 1m-(X)-jumpshift in the other minor
shows a Limit Raise+ in Opener's minor. This helps to right side NT contracts and put the T/O X'er on lead. This replaces Jordan/Truscott 2N.

All the others are for Uncontested Auctions.

2= 1C-2D! and 1D-3C! as Inverted minor raises.

3= 1m-2m! +and+ 1m-JSom! are Inverted minors raises. There are multiple variations.
a= 1m-2m! is a LR and 1m-JSom! is a GF raise.
b= reverse the meanings.
c= 1m-2m! is a LR+ =without= a side stiff or void, 1m-JSom! is a LR+ =with= a side stiff or void.


Of the variations of Criss-cross, I routinely play "1" in Contested Auctions and "3c" in Uncontested Auctions because I feel they are the best of the above choices if I am playing Criss-cross.

However, using 4 sequences to show minor suit raises of various types has a cost.
The most nasty of which is the loss of 1D-3C for other purposes.

1D-2C is already one of the harder auctions. Having 1D-3C available for =non= raising hands (Invitational JS for instance) can be very handy. Up to you to decide if the gains are worth the price.

[awm]

I like the way Jilly described. I've never found it a big problem that the inverted minor call isn't an immediate game force. The more annoying issue with inverted minors is that you can't bid 1m-2m natural constructive anymore. This loses in a lot of situations, sometimes because you play in 3m or 1nt instead of 2m, sometimes because opponents butt in over 1nt and you are forced to guess whether to compete to the three-level on what could be a 4-3 fit (partner can't help you because he doesn't know you have the four-card minor suit fit). Anyways, I can't imagine giving up a useful jump shift just to make my inverted minor calls game-forcing, would much rather get back the natural single raise.

[mike777]

jillybean2, on Jun 20 2007, 12:01 AM, said:

Hi,
CrissCross appears to be straight forward:

1♣:2♦  game force  ♣'s
1♦:3♣  game force  ♦'s

1♣:2♣ constructive ♣'s
1♦:2♦ constructive ♦'s

Is 1♦:2♣ natural ?

Can anyone add anything to this. I can only find one site if I google it and I can't locate it on BridgeGuys

tyia
jb

I play CrissCross all the time.
1c=2d=game force unbalanced very often
1d=3c=game force unbalanced very often
1minor=2s=invite unbalanced often
1minor=2minor=weak, poor shape 4+clubs
1minor=3minor=weak, more shape 5+clubs

1minor=2minor is not constructive, it is weak with poor shape.


1D=2C is not part of CrissCross, I happen to play all 2/1 bids 100% forcing.
Yes, that means if I have long clubs and an invite hand and partner opens 1D I have no perfect bid. This is a hole I choose to live with. Most of the time I will respond 1nt or 2nt invite with that hand, not perfect. In practice this is rarely a problem since active opp often overcall in a major and now I can bid a natural 2clubs. Again this is not part of CrissCross and more a style of how you play 2/1 bids.

Any questions PM me.

[whereagles]

lol... thought this was the criss-cross squeeze

[Gerben42]

My advice is: Don't bother learning this.

[mikeh]

jillybean2, on Jun 20 2007, 12:01 AM, said:

Hi,
CrissCross appears to be straight forward:

1♣:2♦ game force ♣'s
1♦:3♣ game force ♦'s

1♣:2♣ constructive ♣'s
1♦:2♦ constructive ♦'s

Is 1♦:2♣ natural ?

Can anyone add anything to this. I can only find one site if I google it and I can't locate it on BridgeGuys

tyia
jb

I play criss-cross very, very simply:

jumpshift in other minor= limit raise or better

single raise of minor: merely a single raise... anything up to just less than limit.

Jump raises are weak

Now, in these partnerships I usually play weak notrumps, which works well because opener will not have a minimum balanced hand in 1st or 2nd seat.

But I do think that playing the criss-cross as gf is too limiting and places far too high a load on the single raise....or gets you jumping to 3minor on the wrong kind of hand.

[jillybean]

Oh my gosh! I need something simple and easy to remember for the 1/200 hands where I need to make a gf minor raise.
ie holding xx,AJx,KQTxx,KJx after partner opens 1♦.

I have no idea what this means, the formulae and abbreviations put me off reading it at all.

Quote

3= 1m-2m! +and+ 1m-JSom! are Inverted minors raises.  There are multiple variations.
a= 1m-2m! is a LR and 1m-JSom! is a GF raise.
b= reverse the meanings.
c= 1m-2m! is a LR+ =without= a side stiff or void, 1m-JSom! is a LR+ =with= a side stiff or void.

And FLIPFLOPS are what you wear on your feet now that THONGS are no longer suitable footwear


edit: thanks Mike, you beat me to it

[foo]

jillybean2, on Jun 20 2007, 10:22 AM, said:

Oh my gosh! I need something simple and easy to remember for the 1/200 hands where I need to make a gf minor raise.
ie holding  xx,AJx,KQTxx,KJx after partner opens 1♦.

I have no idea what this means, the formulae and abbreviations put me off reading it at all.

Quote

3= 1m-2m! +and+ 1m-Jump Shift om! are Inverted minors raises.  There are multiple variations.
a= 1m-2m! is a Limit Raise and 1m-Jump Shift om! is a GF raise.
b= reverse the meanings.
c= 1m-2m! is a Limit Raise or better =without= a side stiff or void,
     1m-Jump Shift om! is a Limit Raise or better =with= a side stiff or void.

Then keep it simple® and just play 1m-2m! as good old fashioned "Limit Raise or Better" Inverted Minors.

Bid naturally afterward.
So Opener rebids
1= 2M with that Major, or
2= 2N with both Majors, or
3= 3m w/ neither of the above and 5+m

Responder is Captain and rebids based on what Opener has said or implied is needed.

Also, if Inverted Minors's are only coming up 1 in 200 hands, you aren't using them enough.
Start using them with only 4 card support in
a= shapely hands of Invitational Strength and
b= with any shape hand of GF strength.
The expectation of a 1m opening is ~5 cards.

[blackshoe]

There is one very good local player here who likes inverted minor raises to be GF, and uses the criss-cross raises as invitational. Another prefers the inverted raise to be invitational or better, because, she feels, the sequence 1 :-3 :c: uses up too much space.

Paul Thurston's (I think he's the author) 25 Steps to Learning 2/1 advocates Criss-Cross as invitational plus, I think.

As others have alluded, you need to consider the follow-on structure in any case.

For a first foray into finding a way to make a forcing raise of 1m, I'd go with inverted raises inv+. Rebids should now be oriented to finding out whether NT is a viable strain.

[neilkaz]

This is not a simple topic and I have no strong opinions on what is best.

However, I strongly feel that some kind of forcing minor raise is good. It doesn't have to be GF, but just a 1 round force like normal basic invm.

So, if you learn a basic invm response and continuation system you can likely use it with others on BBO. Unfortunately, there are many response and continuation methods. Can someone please link us to something simple, basic and useful for continuing on after the invm bids ?

Alternately, mikeh's scheme using criss cross allows you to retain the simple single raise as normal which can be useful in fighting for part scores, or making sure (esp important at IMP) that you play and make 2 or 3 m rather than being off 1 in 1NT.

I do think a forcing minor raise is a must and playing 1m-3m as limit takes up so much space and results in guess work for 3NT or 5m and sometimes even 6m.

Your example hand xx,AJx,KQTxx,KJx after a 1♦ opening shows why it is nice to have a forcing raise (as do numerous inv responding hands). In your example if you don't have a forcing raise you have to lie 1♥ (can be very dangerous when pd knows you have 4) or lie 2♣ and then at least you can pull whatever happens in ♣ to ♦ and hope for the best. Or you simple blurt out 3NT, missing slams at times, and getting set when you have 5 ♠ losers on the lead and 5♦ is cold.

I suggest finding a simple invm scheme and looking at it deeply as you should be able to play it commonly on BBO.

.. neilkaz ..

[jillybean]

Thanks everyone for your responses, I have a lot to think about here. I'm not sure what I'll do, my favorite partner has found himself a new job and my other partners are either not regular or not interested in this stuff. So I'll probably end up putting it on hold again.

Question for Mike, if you use CrissCross as inv+ minor raise how do you make a GF minor raise?

Justin, 1♦:3♣ 3M = shortage, singleton or void?

[jillybean]

Jlall, on Jun 21 2007, 12:45 AM, said:

jillybean2, on Jun 21 2007, 12:20 AM, said:

Justin, 1♦:3♣ 3M = shortage, singleton or void?

That is what i'd recommend yes.

Thanks, I was just checking that I understood 'short' correctly

[jillybean]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     -     1♣
 Pass  1♦    Pass  1♥
 Pass  2♣    Pass  Pass
 Pass  


This made 7♣ on a ♣ lead..I had not discussed forcing minor raises with this partner. How would you have bid it? 1♣:3♣