[cherdano]

Echognome, on Jun 16 2007, 02:19 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Jun 16 2007, 12:16 PM, said:

The upside to doubling is ease in finding the minor contract, admittedly, when 3♣ or 3♦ is the ideal contract.

Even though I find the choice between pass and 2NT, I think the upside of double is actually that you have Lebensohl (or variant) available, whereas over a 2NT call, you usually do not have as precise methods.

Huh? My methods over 2N, and I would guess pretty much anyone's, are a lot more precise than after double, simply because the 2N bidders strength is very well determined, whereas a double is about 13-37 hcp. The only downside is after a 2N bid partner can't sign off in 3♣, and he won't sign off in 3♦ with 4-card support.

I think the major downside of 2N is that we may end up in a 25-26 hcp 3N that has no play with a single spade stopper. (Jxx KQxx Kx Txxx). (The major upside is that you may end up in a 25-26 hcp 3N that is laydown.)

[Echognome]

cherdano, on Jun 16 2007, 05:43 PM, said:

Huh? My methods over 2N, and I would guess pretty much anyone's, are a lot more precise than after double, simply because the 2N bidders strength is very well determined, whereas a double is about 13-37 hcp. The only downside is after a 2N bid partner can't sign off in 3♣, and he won't sign off in 3♦ with 4-card support.

I think the major downside of 2N is that we may end up in a 25-26 hcp 3N that has no play with a single spade stopper. (Jxx KQxx Kx Txxx). (The major upside is that you may end up in a 25-26 hcp 3N that is laydown.)

Sigh. I don't understand your argument at all.

Maybe you can reread my post where I said "To me the choice is between pass and 2NT." Obviously you have a well defined 2NT that gets across your general hand strength and shape. So this is good as *you* have defined *your* hand well. However, partner does not have as much room to define *his* hand well. This isn't really a contentious point, however, as *by definition* he has more calls available after double than 2NT.

In the lebensohl I play with Jason, he can show invitational or better strength in a major, he can show invitational or better strength with diamonds, he can show game forcing strength with clubs, he can show 4 of the other major and GF with or without a stopper, or he can sign off in any suit. Furthermore, he can pass the double. So clearly he has a lot more options over double than he does over a 2NT call.

This is the upside I mention with double. The tradeoff is that *our* hand isn't as well defined. How that ends up on average obviously depends on partner's hand. You say that yours and pretty much everyone's methods are more precise than after double and I say you're wrong. I say that it depends on what partner's got over there.

[bhall]

Pass is not as silly as it sounds. If the outstanding high cards are split more or less evenly around the table, both 2S and 2N rate to go down one. Wouldn't you rather be in a plus position? When partner raises to 3N, you are still taking the worst of it in many cases, scrambling for 8 tricks before the roof caves in, though once in a while you will make.

The real problem with passing is the possibility that your side has a 5-3 heart fit. Bidding 2N will get you to the right level in hearts in that case. Double may destroy whatever remaining confidence your partner has in your judgement.

[whereagles]

Pard is likely to have a tripleton spade. You have to bid.

On the plus side, LHO is unlikely to double you because

1. he passed originally and
2. a 3rd seat preempt can be weaker than normal

2NT or dbl are both ok. 2NT more descriptive, dbl more flexible. I prefer 2NT.

[Edmunte1]

I think 2nt is the worst evil. Do you play any special development after (2M)-2NT?

[whereagles]

Well, most people just play "system on" and I'm no exception

[Fluffy]

Jlall, on Jun 16 2007, 10:52 PM, said:

Random balanced 8 counts will happen more than usual and I'd rather be in 3N than 3H or 3m on those hands.

Random 8 counts rate to lose many spade tricks in 3NT unless partner has ♠A.

[Codo]

kenrexford, on Jun 17 2007, 05:16 AM, said:

Actually, there are a lot more problems with double than simply missing a fourth heart.

Your heart suit is not simple three-card, you lack even a helpful honor in hearts.
Your strength in HCP's and in defense is understated when you double, with insufficient avenues to both clarifying the poor hearts and showing the good overall strength.

Besides, who needs two spade stoppers here? I may be out there for occasionally overcalling 2NT with a mere bolster, but a full stop works well enough.

The upside to doubling is ease in finding the minor contract, admittedly, when 3♣ or 3♦ is the ideal contract.

1. I don´t see why xxx of Heart is worse then AKx. After all, this is the hand which should ruff the spades if there are any ruffs neccesary.

2. Yes double does not show the strength in one bid, but pd has many options to show his strength and shape, so the loss is there but not too big.

2. In NT you cannot even duck one round of spades. So 2 NT basically hopes to take all tricks before opps can take the lead again. This could work well, but it must not.
Pd must have a long running suit, or the K of Diamonds and the Q of clubs and a HEart stopper and some minor suit length to make 2 (3) NT work. But in this case you will reach 3 NT anyway.
3. if pd has some values, he will bid 3 of a suit and you can still bid 3 NT, so nothing is lost.

[FrancesHinden]

I can't get excited about this; either double or 2NT could be right. I'm not passing. I tend to double on this type of hand but can happily live with either.

Opposite a non-passed partner I would double. Why? Because the most likely game is certainly 3NT, but it's quite possibly 3NT by partner (just think of Q10x opposite). If partner is not a passed hand, he can have a 12-13 count that's happy to drive game, and we'll reach the right game the right way up.

The problem with doubling on the current hand is that partner can't bid a natural 2NT over it. if he could, I would definitely double.

[Apollo81]

I hate both 2NT and double on this hand. 2NT with Kx is just asking for them to duck the first round, win a side entry, and run the suit. Double with xxx hearts and 2 spades is just asking to lose several trump tricks due to spade ruffs/overruffs.

[BebopKid]

I say 2NT is exactly the right bid. Usually...

[foo]

cnszsun, on Jun 15 2007, 10:35 AM, said:

West,Both,IMP,
♠Kx♥xxx♦AQTx♣AKxx

After 2 pass, your RHO opens 2♠ in 3rd seat, Is 2N a popular choice now?

As mikeh, ken, and Frances have already noted, 2N is the "book" bid here.
Anything else smacks of masterminding.

pd being a passed hand does !not! make it impossible for pd to have 8-11 HCP. And if pd does, We belong in Game. At equal vul, We are going to have to take 2♠ a wee bit more than what is reasonable for it to make up for Us missing a game.

In addition, I note that We are Red @ IMPs.

We're supposed to be in 34+% games in this situation.
If pd has 5+H and 8+ HCP, 4H could be considerably better than 1/3.

Show some backbone and make the book bid.

[awm]

Only passing makes missing a game all that likely here. What does a three-bid show over double playing lebensohl? Seems to me that especially by passed hand this is something like a good 8 to 11. It's not like partner can have a "forcing" hand. So basically the hand that doesn't bid 2NT (leb) is the hand where we bid game.

And if we do have game, double followed by partner's 3-bid and a 3NT call normally shows some hand like this (one spade stopper, extra values). Presumably a hand with multiple spade stoppers would either overcall 2NT or 3NT to begin with.

I suspect the real problem is going to be the hands where partscore is the limit. If partner has five hearts, it's again unlikely to matter (you reach 3♥ either way). The question is basically:

(1) How often will partner have exactly four hearts, and try bidding lebensohl followed by 3♥? How much better off are you in 2NT on these hands?

(2) How often will partner have a 4+ card minor which you would reach after double? How much worse are you in 2NT on these hands?

(3) How often is partner passing the double for a big plus score?

I would rate double as slightly better than 2NT here, but with no strong preference. Pass seems too likely to miss something unless you open virtually all tens (in which case I think pass is clearcut).

[foo]

You have a point. I did not consider the implications of System if we are playing something that expects Us to open most 10 counts (Kamikaze NT for instance. Although anyone who uses the KNT when Red is really asking for trouble IMHO).

If you are playing a system where pd's initial pass tends strongly to deny 10+ points, the odds of game being on Our way drop considerably.