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"type and degree of support"

Poll: Your call: (30 member(s) have cast votes)

Your call:

  1. 1NT (~7-10 hcp) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. 2S (basically anything with 3 card support) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. 2NT (good offensive 4 card raise) (14 votes [46.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 46.67%

  4. 3C (mixed raise on 4 trumps) (10 votes [33.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 33.33%

  5. 3D (fit jump to 3 level) (5 votes [16.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.67%

  6. 3H (what's a monkey option?) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  7. 3S (preemptive 4 card raise) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  8. 3NT (???) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  9. 4D (fit jmp to 4 level) (1 votes [3.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.33%

  10. 4S (I will not explain this one) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#21 User is offline   kgr 

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Posted 2007-June-07, 14:01

Jlall, on Jun 7 2007, 08:57 PM, said:

2C (you said this can contain 4 trumps with low ODR right?),

and to add to apollo's comment... I really really really don't understand calling this a mixed raise. A mixed raise is more like Kxxx x Kxxxx xxx than this balanced 11 count.

Justin,
I would bid a preemptive 3♠ with that example and took 2NT from the poll.
I would be very interested if you (..or another expert) could give example hands of the different support bids (2♣, 3♣, 2NT, 2♠, 3♠ - any other?)
Thanks,
Koen
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#22 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2007-June-07, 14:10

I would bid 2N, 2♣ is the other sensible option, everything else isn't even a consideration for me.
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#23 User is offline   keylime 

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  Posted 2007-June-07, 14:15

Here's why I don't think this is offensive enough:

1. Not enough controls. I have three working controls and a Q that is helping my king. However, my fragments are just blah, and pard is just an overcaller. Pard (especially mine who bids every close game) will move on any shapely 11 count for their overcall and be down on more layouts than making.

2. Three dead in their opening suit. Assuming opener has a likely 4 card club suit, can we sufficiently control the 2nd round of clubs if pard has no heart ace over there?

3. The ODR isn't offensive enough. I want 2NT to be a shape raise with working values; so that I can cheaply cuebid and then bid again to show a balanced limit raise if pard makes some noise. This hand to me, is barely enough for a limit raise opposite an opener - over an overcaller, let overcaller show their range before I commit to a blast.

4. You bury their 3C rebid if they have one. So what if I trot out my cute little 2NT LR or better, if you hear a 3C bid cause they are short/void in spades? Instead, let 'em struggle with their potential fit or bid 4C.
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#24 User is offline   pbleighton 

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Posted 2007-June-07, 15:11

2C, with 2N a close second.

To me, showing a mixed raise is a clear underbid.

Peter
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#25 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2007-June-07, 16:12

kgr, on Jun 7 2007, 03:01 PM, said:

Jlall, on Jun 7 2007, 08:57 PM, said:

2C (you said this can contain 4 trumps with low ODR right?),

and to add to apollo's comment... I really really really don't understand calling this a mixed raise. A mixed raise is more like Kxxx x Kxxxx xxx than this balanced 11 count.

Justin,
I would bid a preemptive 3♠ with that example and took 2NT from the poll.
I would be very interested if you (..or another expert) could give example hands of the different support bids (2♣, 3♣, 2NT, 2♠, 3♠ - any other?)
Thanks,
Koen

I personally do not play 2N in the way used in this poll, but I will give you what I would have roughly for each bid if I did play these methods (note it was stated that 2C can be bid on 4 card support with low ODR).

2C: Kxx Kxx Axxxx xx or Kxxx Kxx AJx xxx.

2S: Kxx xx Kxxxx xxx

2N: KQxx xx AQxx xxx

3C: Kxxx x Kxxxx xxx

3S: Qxxx x xxxx xxxx

re bidding 3S with my example hand for a mixed raise, I think that NV that is a very heavy 3S bid. You have 2 kings and a stiff which is like 9 support points, it's not quite a limit raise but not really a preemptive raise (which could be made with 4 trumps and a singleton and no HCP in my opinion). The point of the mixed raise in my mind is to fill the gap left between preemptive raise and limit raise in a hand that's not quite right for a simple raise because if partner has the right hand (controls, trump length, shortness) you can make a game easily.

I see people all the time making a mixed raise with Qxxx Kxxx Qx Jxx and stuff and that is really not the right hand for it (I would give a simple raise).

If you bid 3S with Kxxx x Kxxxx xxx NV then you will be forced to have a very wide range or not be able to make enough preemptive raises, I thought the point of a mixed raise was to alleviate this problem.

If you agree with what I just wrote then you are probably totally confused by all the votes for a mixed raise with a soft balanced 11 count.
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#26 User is offline   kgr 

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Posted 2007-June-07, 17:38

Thanks Justin!
This gives (with some additional questions :) ):
(1C)-1S-(DBL/Pass)-??

2C: Kxx Kxx Axxxx xx or Kxxx Kxx AJx xxx.
-- Defensive hand. Limit raise.
(or stronger hand with no clear bid like Kx AKxx KQxx xxx?)

2S: Kxx xx Kxxxx xxx or Qxxx Kxxx Qx Jxx
-- 3 card raise. Some values (Or can it also be done with nothing??)

2N: KQxx xx AQxx xxx
-- Offensive 4-card raise. Limit raise.

3C: Kxxx x Kxxxx xxx
-- Offensive 4-card raise. Mixed raise.

3S: Qxxx x xxxx xxxx
-- Offensive 4-card raise. preemptive.

3D: Qxxx x AKQxx xxx
-- fit jump. Very Offensive 4-card raise with good side suit.

 
(1C)-1S-(DBL/Pass)-2C
(P)-2S-(P)-??
3S
3C
3D/3H
- - -
After mixed raise:
(1C)-1S-(DBL/Pass)-3C
(P)-??
3D/3H: shortness or values in D/H?
- - -
After 2NT raise:
(1C)-1S-(DBL/Pass)-2NT
(P)-??
3C: ?
3D/3H: shortness or values in D/H?
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#27 User is offline   jgo 

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Posted 2007-June-09, 15:06

2C.
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